4 ms·

> the rest of the EU will be freed of the British veto and able to get as integrated as it wishes Anyone who thinks that EU skepticism is exclusive to the Brit

> the rest of the EU will be freed of the British veto and able to get as integrated as it wishes Anyone who thinks that EU skepticism is exclusive to the Brits is in for a nasty nasty surprise.

flexie 7y ago
I think that by now everyone realizes that there are EU skeptics in all member countries. There will always be. Around 25 percent of Americans want their state to secede (1). A lot of Italians want Northern Italy to part with Southern Italy. Spain has Catalan and Basque separatists. The UK has Scotland, and perhaps even Northern Ireland. There are many people in many places that think they would be better off in a more (formally) independent state. For now, the EU skeptics are a small minority in most EU countries. I for one hope it stays like that. The EU has shown remarkable unity when met with Brexit. 1: http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four-americans-want-their-state-to-secede-from-the-u-s-but-why/ http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four...
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Once upon a time Amsterdam was at war with other cities. What those people do not realize is that the only alternative to further European integration is another war, the more and the smaller the slices are the more certain that future becomes. Just the UK seceding from the EU increases the chances of such a thing happening tremendously.
  - antientropic 7y ago
    > the only alternative to further European integration is another war False dichotomy. Surely the same level of integration, or even a slightly lower level of integration, will not necessarily lead to war. EU members were already quite peaceful before the adoption of the Lisbon treaty, for instance. And you should also at least entertain the possibility that integrating populations further than they're willing to go increases the odds of conflict.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      The same level would be fine but it is either the top of the hill or the beginning of the downslope. The EU made several critical mistakes in the way they approached their growth and integration issues and those in turn could very well lead to a final desintegration or split of the bloc. The UK leaving is a very bad sign, given that they already had one of the most exceptional positions within the EU. Time will tell. Of course the integration 'by force' (Maastricht for one, Lisbon for another) was utterly dumb, it feels to me as though they thought 'now or never' not realizing that they may be planting the seeds for the eventual dismantling of the union.
sgift 7y ago
The British position was special for at least three reasons: - British state doctrine has always been: We are the empire, the natural rulers of the world. We only live by chance near the rest of Europe, so we have to interact with the continent at bit more - Britain was a net payer. We may strive for that to not be relevant, but if you pay you have influence - Britain got many exceptions to the usual rules that allowed them to further their position No other country has that combination, so the EU "skepticism" of others countries is less important, though there's still danger. We'll see how that plays out in the end, but still: GBs position was in many ways unique. Even if GB rejoined in a few years it probably wouldn't be the same.
- Chris2048 7y ago
  > Britain got many exceptions to the usual rules that allowed them to further their position Can you explain what you mean?
  - gumby 7y ago
    The rebate is (was) the biggie.
  - 781 7y ago
    Britain was allowed to not follow many EU laws, for example they were allowed to keep the pound and not join the Euro as the treaties mandate.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - jddj 7y ago
    I'm not GP, but the UK has negotiated four opt-outs (you could also include Cameron's pre-referendum requests). This is more than any other EU country. The economic and monetary union (the euro), Schengen, the Charter of Fundamental Rights and "the area of freedom, security and justice".
derriz 7y ago
Indeed but it's not just EU skepticism. Even among very pro-EU political parties and countries across Europe, there has been no appetite for a new EU treaty since the Lisbon treaty. I'm willing to bet that there will be no further EU treaties for a decade or more. And without a new treaty, there is little or no scope for further EU integration. The EU is a highly legalistic construct where powers are strictly defined by its multi-lateral treaties. The idea that the EU civil service (commission) can just grab powers from national governments is anti-EU fud. Even within areas judged to be within the competence of the EU, the principle of subsidiarity (that power should remain with national governments unless absolutely necessary) is explicity a general principle of EU law.

> the rest of the EU will be freed of the British veto and able to get as integrated as it wishes Anyone who thinks that EU skepticism is exclusive to the Brits is in for a nasty nasty surprise.

flexie 7y ago

I think that by now everyone realizes that there are EU skeptics in all member countries. There will always be. Around 25 percent of Americans want their state to secede (1). A lot of Italians want Northern Italy to part with Southern Italy. Spain has Catalan and Basque separatists. The UK has Scotland, and perhaps even Northern Ireland. There are many people in many places that think they would be better off in a more (formally) independent state. For now, the EU skeptics are a small minority in most EU countries. I for one hope it stays like that. The EU has shown remarkable unity when met with Brexit. 1: http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four-americans-want-their-state-to-secede-from-the-u-s-but-why/ http://blogs.reuters.com/jamesrgaines/2014/09/19/one-in-four...

jacquesm 7y ago
Once upon a time Amsterdam was at war with other cities. What those people do not realize is that the only alternative to further European integration is another war, the more and the smaller the slices are the more certain that future becomes. Just the UK seceding from the EU increases the chances of such a thing happening tremendously.
- antientropic 7y ago
  > the only alternative to further European integration is another war False dichotomy. Surely the same level of integration, or even a slightly lower level of integration, will not necessarily lead to war. EU members were already quite peaceful before the adoption of the Lisbon treaty, for instance. And you should also at least entertain the possibility that integrating populations further than they're willing to go increases the odds of conflict.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    The same level would be fine but it is either the top of the hill or the beginning of the downslope. The EU made several critical mistakes in the way they approached their growth and integration issues and those in turn could very well lead to a final desintegration or split of the bloc. The UK leaving is a very bad sign, given that they already had one of the most exceptional positions within the EU. Time will tell. Of course the integration 'by force' (Maastricht for one, Lisbon for another) was utterly dumb, it feels to me as though they thought 'now or never' not realizing that they may be planting the seeds for the eventual dismantling of the union.

sgift 7y ago

The British position was special for at least three reasons: - British state doctrine has always been: We are the empire, the natural rulers of the world. We only live by chance near the rest of Europe, so we have to interact with the continent at bit more - Britain was a net payer. We may strive for that to not be relevant, but if you pay you have influence - Britain got many exceptions to the usual rules that allowed them to further their position No other country has that combination, so the EU "skepticism" of others countries is less important, though there's still danger. We'll see how that plays out in the end, but still: GBs position was in many ways unique. Even if GB rejoined in a few years it probably wouldn't be the same.

Chris2048 7y ago
> Britain got many exceptions to the usual rules that allowed them to further their position Can you explain what you mean?
- gumby 7y ago
  The rebate is (was) the biggie.
- 781 7y ago
  Britain was allowed to not follow many EU laws, for example they were allowed to keep the pound and not join the Euro as the treaties mandate.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jddj 7y ago
  I'm not GP, but the UK has negotiated four opt-outs (you could also include Cameron's pre-referendum requests). This is more than any other EU country. The economic and monetary union (the euro), Schengen, the Charter of Fundamental Rights and "the area of freedom, security and justice".

derriz 7y ago

Indeed but it's not just EU skepticism. Even among very pro-EU political parties and countries across Europe, there has been no appetite for a new EU treaty since the Lisbon treaty. I'm willing to bet that there will be no further EU treaties for a decade or more. And without a new treaty, there is little or no scope for further EU integration. The EU is a highly legalistic construct where powers are strictly defined by its multi-lateral treaties. The idea that the EU civil service (commission) can just grab powers from national governments is anti-EU fud. Even within areas judged to be within the competence of the EU, the principle of subsidiarity (that power should remain with national governments unless absolutely necessary) is explicity a general principle of EU law.