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5G-NR standard only gives a 15-20% gain in data thoroughput over the same bandwidth as compared to 4G LTE. The vast majority of the increase in thoroughput has

5G-NR standard only gives a 15-20% gain in data thoroughput over the same bandwidth as compared to 4G LTE. The vast majority of the increase in thoroughput has to come from the millimeter wave bands. Think about streetlights to get an idea of coverage and propagation. Now think about running internet fiber to every streetlight. It's quite a task. It'll only be done (and has only been done so far in the USA) in areas that require high bits/khz/km^2 like entertainment stadiums. Additionally, almost no two countries actually have overlapping 5G bands. It's a mess of competing standards. So it'll be different frontend modules for controlling the antenna arrays required on the handsets (high power usage and space requirements) due to the integration required. Handsets are going to have to get bigger. Unlikably big and specific to region. And beyond that the 5G setups being implemented now aren't stand alone. They're both LTE and Non-Standalone (NSA) 5G. The 5G just provides extra bandwidth and isn't used as a control for the handsets. It more than doubles the complexity of setups because of the trouble RF designers have to take with harmonics and intermodulation. All the competing national freq band standards mean different filtering solutions. The future will not be evenly distributed.

emilfihlman 7y ago
>5G-NR standard only gives a 15-20% 15-25% is _fucking_ _huge_. Even a few percent increase would be worth it for telcos.
- woah 7y ago
  15%-20% might be huge for Verizon’s CFO and shareholders, but it’s inconsequential for consumers who are currently being sold some terabit-IoT-self-driving-car-VR-surgery yarn in an effort to get governments to give handouts of property and spectrum to anyone waving the magical 5g sauce.
  - Cookiesaurusbex 7y ago
    It's also inconsequential for everyone who has a data cap on their phone plan. Running out of data 20% sooner isn't a win for people who can't afford a luxury plan.
    - emilfihlman 7y ago
      This is absolutely a 100% silly way to look at it. The same amount of data is used even if you had slow or fast internet.
  - emilfihlman 7y ago
    And who do you think is pushing for 5G? The companies who will benefit from this 15-20%.
- superkuh 7y ago
  It's 20% not 25% (more accurately, 19%). These are real numbers not something I made up. And the increase in bandwidth from 3G to 4G was ~4x, 400%, so the increase from 4G LTE modulation to 5G NR is pretty marginal in comparison.
  - emilfihlman 7y ago
    I quoted, I didn't come up with the numbers.
ksec 7y ago
>Additionally, almost no two countries actually have overlapping 5G bands What does that mean? The 5G NR in the future will be reformed from the current LTE, and aren't we all set for mmWave AND 3.x Ghz Spectrum for 5G? I think that is what the majority of EU, South Korea, Taiwan and China are doing. I am pretty sure that is what US and Canada are doing as well.
- superkuh 7y ago
  Even the sub-6GHz spectrum allocations in various countries don't overlap that much. But yeah, the 3-6 GHz spectrum is going to be the biggest game changer since it will actually propagate okay and doesn't have the phase noise problems of very high frequencies. https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/31757-global-5g-rush-but-no-global-5g-handsets https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/31757-global-5g-ru...
inflatableDodo 7y ago
>Now think about running internet fiber to every streetlight. Streetlights are usually within sight of each other. Can't we just add light sensors that point at the neighboring lights and modulate the brightness by a fraction if we want to do messaging?
- amluto 7y ago
  Streetlights are usually white, which means there’s a phosphor, which drastically limits the modulation frequency. Also, the lights themselves (at least where I live) are owned by the city or PG&E. Good luck getting them to cooperate that deeply with carriers. Also, the lights are off in the daytime. That being said, in the absence of fog and heavy rain, optical communication between light poles isn’t that crazy.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    Was thinking mostly of messaging for the lights themselves, telling lights to tun on or off, checking that they are on or off and also that they aren't misbehaving, that sort of thing, so relatively slow modulation would probably be fine.
    - cmrx64 7y ago
      I’m pretty sure OP was referencing streetlights for how dense you need your base stations for millimeter wave communication networks.
mycall 7y ago
Will phones have multiple antennas for 5G?
- superkuh 7y ago
  Yes, for millimeter wave. They require line of sight and are easily blocked by hand position in addition to multiple antennas being required for achieving the data thoroughput improvements of MIMO. The entire phone will have to be covered in antenna.
  - mycall 7y ago
    I remember the old fractal antennas for handling different frequencies. Maybe those will still be used.

emilfihlman 7y ago

>5G-NR standard only gives a 15-20% 15-25% is _fucking_ _huge_. Even a few percent increase would be worth it for telcos.

woah 7y ago
15%-20% might be huge for Verizon’s CFO and shareholders, but it’s inconsequential for consumers who are currently being sold some terabit-IoT-self-driving-car-VR-surgery yarn in an effort to get governments to give handouts of property and spectrum to anyone waving the magical 5g sauce.
- Cookiesaurusbex 7y ago
  It's also inconsequential for everyone who has a data cap on their phone plan. Running out of data 20% sooner isn't a win for people who can't afford a luxury plan.
  - emilfihlman 7y ago
    This is absolutely a 100% silly way to look at it. The same amount of data is used even if you had slow or fast internet.
- emilfihlman 7y ago
  And who do you think is pushing for 5G? The companies who will benefit from this 15-20%.
superkuh 7y ago
It's 20% not 25% (more accurately, 19%). These are real numbers not something I made up. And the increase in bandwidth from 3G to 4G was ~4x, 400%, so the increase from 4G LTE modulation to 5G NR is pretty marginal in comparison.
- emilfihlman 7y ago
  I quoted, I didn't come up with the numbers.

ksec 7y ago

>Additionally, almost no two countries actually have overlapping 5G bands What does that mean? The 5G NR in the future will be reformed from the current LTE, and aren't we all set for mmWave AND 3.x Ghz Spectrum for 5G? I think that is what the majority of EU, South Korea, Taiwan and China are doing. I am pretty sure that is what US and Canada are doing as well.

superkuh 7y ago
Even the sub-6GHz spectrum allocations in various countries don't overlap that much. But yeah, the 3-6 GHz spectrum is going to be the biggest game changer since it will actually propagate okay and doesn't have the phase noise problems of very high frequencies. https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/31757-global-5g-rush-but-no-global-5g-handsets https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/31757-global-5g-ru...

inflatableDodo 7y ago

>Now think about running internet fiber to every streetlight. Streetlights are usually within sight of each other. Can't we just add light sensors that point at the neighboring lights and modulate the brightness by a fraction if we want to do messaging?

amluto 7y ago
Streetlights are usually white, which means there’s a phosphor, which drastically limits the modulation frequency. Also, the lights themselves (at least where I live) are owned by the city or PG&E. Good luck getting them to cooperate that deeply with carriers. Also, the lights are off in the daytime. That being said, in the absence of fog and heavy rain, optical communication between light poles isn’t that crazy.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  Was thinking mostly of messaging for the lights themselves, telling lights to tun on or off, checking that they are on or off and also that they aren't misbehaving, that sort of thing, so relatively slow modulation would probably be fine.
  - cmrx64 7y ago
    I’m pretty sure OP was referencing streetlights for how dense you need your base stations for millimeter wave communication networks.

mycall 7y ago

Will phones have multiple antennas for 5G?

superkuh 7y ago
Yes, for millimeter wave. They require line of sight and are easily blocked by hand position in addition to multiple antennas being required for achieving the data thoroughput improvements of MIMO. The entire phone will have to be covered in antenna.
- mycall 7y ago
  I remember the old fractal antennas for handling different frequencies. Maybe those will still be used.