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Allowing them to live in our presence and not trying to kill them? Rats are largely scavengers, their involvement in, e.g. black plague, has been disproven. If

Allowing them to live in our presence and not trying to kill them? Rats are largely scavengers, their involvement in, e.g. black plague, has been disproven. If you don't leave food out and available, they won't eat it. In many countries around the world people live in harmony with other animals and don't try to wipe them out just because they are in the same space. Not to mention the amount of toxic poisons that end up harming us more than the rats that we are dumping int our own habitat to try to kill the rats. It's not much different than insects. We've chosen a few "pest" insects as the scapegoat/enemy and have bent over backwards trying to exterminate them. As a result, we've decimated all insect populations as collateral damage, severely damaging our own habitat, environment, and ecosystem, and again, poisoning ourselves in the process. Because... Everyone eats insects, and once there are no insects, there's nothing for them to eat! Same thing with bacteria. We've decided that sterility is the way to go, and gone on a mad spree trying to kill all bacteria, forgetting that bacteria is how we digest food, so again, poisoning ourselves and damaging our own health, threatening ourselves in the process. These are all living organisms that we are closely related to, sharing the same environment as us, and anything we do to them comes back to us. Not only that, but our bodies are tuned over millions of years to coexist with them, and a sterile environment with all kinds of synthetic poisons in it, once again, fucks us up. There is also the issue that computers and AIs are learning from us the way children learn from their parents, and will one day treat us the same way that we treat the "lower" species.

harimau777 7y ago
I definitely agree that trying to just eliminate nature from our cities is going to have negative consequences. And from what I understand, the mechanisms behind many of the ways we kill rodents (e.g. anticoagulant poison and sticky paper) seem inhumane. I'll have to look into if there have been studies on more systemic approaches to managing animal populations. Things like changing how/where food waste is stored. Would you oppose lethal approaches to rodent control if they were more limited and directed? For example, a warehouse getting a cat or setting out some mouse traps.
- WalterBright 7y ago
  I have this book: https://www.amazon.com/Common-Sense-Pest-Control-Least-Toxic-Solutions/dp/0942391632 https://www.amazon.com/Common-Sense-Pest-Control-Least-Toxic... Sounds like what you're looking for. I've used its recommendations in the house I built, with good results. (For example, instead of foam I used a metal sill plate, which prevents insects from coming up through cracks in the foundation into the wood structure.)
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Interesting! What kind of metal did you use and did you have to install some kind of sacrificial anode to ensure that it won't oxidize away over the decades?
    - WalterBright 7y ago
      I used stainless steel sheet. Where the anchor bolts were, a largish hole was punched in the sill plate so the stainless wasn't in contact with the iron, which would have resulted in galvanic corrosion. The contractor groused about it, because he wasn't used to doing things that way. But he got excited about it after a while, and on his own fabricated stainless steel inserts that the windows would fit into that would prevent any leaks and rot around the windows. He was pretty proud of his work :-) Another thing the book recommended was putting ground glass into the concrete mix, as rats won't chew it. But I didn't go that far. The main thing is to make sure any gaps and vents have wire screens. Mice can get in where the plumbing enters the house, you can stop that by ramming steel wool between the pipe and the house.
- forgotmypw 7y ago
  Cats are very effective, and their smell acts as a deterrent. Traps and poison are inhumane, cruel, and just bad karma, and usually come back to bite us somehow. I think the solution is to tolerate and even appreciate the rats, and learn to share space with them.
  - Consultant32452 7y ago
totalZero 7y ago
Your assertion that rats weren't involved in the spread of the black plague is misleading. Rats do spread disease. Some experts believe they were not the vector for the black plague, but there are several other (many of which are quite recent) outbreaks where rats have unquestionably spread disease. Take a look for yourself: https://www.cdc.gov/rodents/diseases/direct.html https://www.cdc.gov/rodents/diseases/direct.html Personally I believe we should preserve human health over rat health, and a good way of doing that is to exterminate rats.
darkpuma 7y ago
> "It's not much different than insects. We've chosen a few "pest" insects as the scapegoat/enemy and have bent over backwards trying to exterminate them. As a result, we've decimated all insect populations as collateral damage, severely damaging our own habitat, environment, and ecosystem, and again, poisoning ourselves in the process. Because... Everyone eats insects, and once there are no insects, there's nothing for them to eat!" I kindly invite you to rent a room at the shittiest motel in town and learn to live and let live with bed bugs.
- jfoutz 7y ago
  Also, fuck mosquitos. I’m not a fan of spiders or cockroaches. I can adapt my behavior so we rarely interact. But, uh, miserable bloodsuckers-I don’t think there is any common ground for us to share.
  - michaelscott 7y ago
    Mosquitos are a legitimate, serious problem in some parts of the world as fatal disease vectors. I don't know enough about their role in the ecosystem to know whether it's okay to wipe them out, but considering the number of human lives they claim every year through spreading disease I'd happily go that route myself.
    - smegger001 7y ago
      same with ticks. Fuck ticks. blood sucking assholes spreading dissease. Some species can cause paralyses in victims, others can induce meat allergyes, many carry a verity of hellish viral bacterial and protozoen infections.
    - Kaiyou 7y ago
      As far as I know birds eat them. A lot. But then again, birds eat other stuff, too.
  - tatami 7y ago
    I could live with them, they should just come down and take my blood. But all they do is buzzing around my head when I try to sleep!
Tsubasachan 7y ago
I am amazed at how efficient rats are. I put a garbage bag in my shed and 3 days later the only thing that was left was the plastic. The government in their infinite wisdom hatched out a scheme were everyone has to pay per kilogram of produced waste so a lot of people were just dumping their trash. It was a 24/7 buffet for rats. Then, as only a country that has literally too much money can do, they sent out inspectors on to the streets to sift through the bags and fine people.

harimau777 7y ago

I definitely agree that trying to just eliminate nature from our cities is going to have negative consequences. And from what I understand, the mechanisms behind many of the ways we kill rodents (e.g. anticoagulant poison and sticky paper) seem inhumane. I'll have to look into if there have been studies on more systemic approaches to managing animal populations. Things like changing how/where food waste is stored. Would you oppose lethal approaches to rodent control if they were more limited and directed? For example, a warehouse getting a cat or setting out some mouse traps.

WalterBright 7y ago
I have this book: https://www.amazon.com/Common-Sense-Pest-Control-Least-Toxic-Solutions/dp/0942391632 https://www.amazon.com/Common-Sense-Pest-Control-Least-Toxic... Sounds like what you're looking for. I've used its recommendations in the house I built, with good results. (For example, instead of foam I used a metal sill plate, which prevents insects from coming up through cracks in the foundation into the wood structure.)
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Interesting! What kind of metal did you use and did you have to install some kind of sacrificial anode to ensure that it won't oxidize away over the decades?
  - WalterBright 7y ago
    I used stainless steel sheet. Where the anchor bolts were, a largish hole was punched in the sill plate so the stainless wasn't in contact with the iron, which would have resulted in galvanic corrosion. The contractor groused about it, because he wasn't used to doing things that way. But he got excited about it after a while, and on his own fabricated stainless steel inserts that the windows would fit into that would prevent any leaks and rot around the windows. He was pretty proud of his work :-) Another thing the book recommended was putting ground glass into the concrete mix, as rats won't chew it. But I didn't go that far. The main thing is to make sure any gaps and vents have wire screens. Mice can get in where the plumbing enters the house, you can stop that by ramming steel wool between the pipe and the house.
forgotmypw 7y ago
Cats are very effective, and their smell acts as a deterrent. Traps and poison are inhumane, cruel, and just bad karma, and usually come back to bite us somehow. I think the solution is to tolerate and even appreciate the rats, and learn to share space with them.
- Consultant32452 7y ago

totalZero 7y ago

Your assertion that rats weren't involved in the spread of the black plague is misleading. Rats do spread disease. Some experts believe they were not the vector for the black plague, but there are several other (many of which are quite recent) outbreaks where rats have unquestionably spread disease. Take a look for yourself: https://www.cdc.gov/rodents/diseases/direct.html https://www.cdc.gov/rodents/diseases/direct.html Personally I believe we should preserve human health over rat health, and a good way of doing that is to exterminate rats.

darkpuma 7y ago

> "It's not much different than insects. We've chosen a few "pest" insects as the scapegoat/enemy and have bent over backwards trying to exterminate them. As a result, we've decimated all insect populations as collateral damage, severely damaging our own habitat, environment, and ecosystem, and again, poisoning ourselves in the process. Because... Everyone eats insects, and once there are no insects, there's nothing for them to eat!" I kindly invite you to rent a room at the shittiest motel in town and learn to live and let live with bed bugs.

jfoutz 7y ago
Also, fuck mosquitos. I’m not a fan of spiders or cockroaches. I can adapt my behavior so we rarely interact. But, uh, miserable bloodsuckers-I don’t think there is any common ground for us to share.
- michaelscott 7y ago
  Mosquitos are a legitimate, serious problem in some parts of the world as fatal disease vectors. I don't know enough about their role in the ecosystem to know whether it's okay to wipe them out, but considering the number of human lives they claim every year through spreading disease I'd happily go that route myself.
  - smegger001 7y ago
    same with ticks. Fuck ticks. blood sucking assholes spreading dissease. Some species can cause paralyses in victims, others can induce meat allergyes, many carry a verity of hellish viral bacterial and protozoen infections.
  - Kaiyou 7y ago
    As far as I know birds eat them. A lot. But then again, birds eat other stuff, too.
- tatami 7y ago
  I could live with them, they should just come down and take my blood. But all they do is buzzing around my head when I try to sleep!

Tsubasachan 7y ago

I am amazed at how efficient rats are. I put a garbage bag in my shed and 3 days later the only thing that was left was the plastic. The government in their infinite wisdom hatched out a scheme were everyone has to pay per kilogram of produced waste so a lot of people were just dumping their trash. It was a 24/7 buffet for rats. Then, as only a country that has literally too much money can do, they sent out inspectors on to the streets to sift through the bags and fine people.