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Apple and AMD just have to ask TSMC to do their magic to make 7nm chips - they haven't had to do anything spectacular, just use TSMCs design libraries. Intel i

by tntn 7y ago

Apple and AMD just have to ask TSMC to do their magic to make 7nm chips - they haven't had to do anything spectacular, just use TSMCs design libraries. Intel is struggling because of their struggles with 10nm. Apple and AMD are not because TSMC has pulled off 7nm. Architecture matters, but process node matters a lot too.

lawrenceyan 7y ago
What would you say are the primary differences between the two companies? Is it more just a matter of luck that has allowed for TSMC to have been able to succeed where Intel hasn't? Or is there actually a meaningfully different process design and/or problem solving approach that is enabling this?
- dfrage 7y ago
  Not tntn, but I've been following this and it seems to be both Intel's now decades long history of very bad high level engineering and personal management catching up with their crown jewel, and being more aggressive than TSMC's initial 7nm node. Perhaps Intel depending on a particular lithography? technique that TSMC isn't, or isn't yet heavily, but we don't really know, no one authoritative is talking, and Intel is still claiming 10nm is going to make it.
- wtallis 7y ago
  The full story on how Intel managed to fuck up 10nm so badly may not see the light of day for years if ever. But generally, it seems that Intel tried to make too many changes in one generation. They probably wanted their 10nm to be the most advanced process that didn't require EUV lithography. Some features of their 10nm process ended up not working (evidence points to the cobalt interconnects as one of the hang-ups). In the meantime, it looks like EUV is coming along nicely. They compounded their problems by essentially stopping microarchitecture development on 14nm, which is why eg. their laptop processors still don't support LPDDR4, and they're still shipping basically the same CPU core they released in 2015. Coupling microarchitecture and fabrication development has at times been an advantage for Intel, but for the past few years it's been a huge mistake, and they've promised changes to their design processes so that they don't get stuck like this again in the future if fab advances aren't ready when new microarchitectures are. TSMC naturally doesn't have this problem, because they're a pure play foundry. Their customers have to each make their own bets on when new fab processes will be truly ready, and how well they will perform in practice.
- pkaye 7y ago
  I think Intel having their own manufacturing fab is hurting them in the longterm. By outsourcing it you can go with whomever has the best solution. By matter of pride, Intel has not done this but AMD, Nvidia, Apple all do this.
  - dfrage 7y ago
    I've heard entirely the opposite, that having a close relationship between chip designers and fabricators allows for higher performance designs. I don't know of anyone who interpreted AMD selling off its foundries as anything other than severe financial distress, and it worked supremely well for Intel while they stayed at least one step ahead of the competition. Enough so this is said to have wiped out a generation of CPU architects while Dennard scaling still worked, no matter how clever they were, Intel moving to its next process node wiped out their speed advantage. But it's a brittle model, if a company screws up a node and is too messed up to handle the failure gracefully, as Intel is doing with their "10nm", no doubt with pride as a factor. And it's not uncommon for institutions to permanently lose abilities, I'm not counting on Intel succeeding with their "7nm" node. On the third hand, we're now down to 2-3 high end CPU fab companies, Samsung, TSMC, and maybe Intel. That also can be a brittle thing.

by tntn 7y ago

lawrenceyan 7y ago

What would you say are the primary differences between the two companies? Is it more just a matter of luck that has allowed for TSMC to have been able to succeed where Intel hasn't? Or is there actually a meaningfully different process design and/or problem solving approach that is enabling this?

dfrage 7y ago
Not tntn, but I've been following this and it seems to be both Intel's now decades long history of very bad high level engineering and personal management catching up with their crown jewel, and being more aggressive than TSMC's initial 7nm node. Perhaps Intel depending on a particular lithography? technique that TSMC isn't, or isn't yet heavily, but we don't really know, no one authoritative is talking, and Intel is still claiming 10nm is going to make it.
wtallis 7y ago
The full story on how Intel managed to fuck up 10nm so badly may not see the light of day for years if ever. But generally, it seems that Intel tried to make too many changes in one generation. They probably wanted their 10nm to be the most advanced process that didn't require EUV lithography. Some features of their 10nm process ended up not working (evidence points to the cobalt interconnects as one of the hang-ups). In the meantime, it looks like EUV is coming along nicely. They compounded their problems by essentially stopping microarchitecture development on 14nm, which is why eg. their laptop processors still don't support LPDDR4, and they're still shipping basically the same CPU core they released in 2015. Coupling microarchitecture and fabrication development has at times been an advantage for Intel, but for the past few years it's been a huge mistake, and they've promised changes to their design processes so that they don't get stuck like this again in the future if fab advances aren't ready when new microarchitectures are. TSMC naturally doesn't have this problem, because they're a pure play foundry. Their customers have to each make their own bets on when new fab processes will be truly ready, and how well they will perform in practice.
pkaye 7y ago
I think Intel having their own manufacturing fab is hurting them in the longterm. By outsourcing it you can go with whomever has the best solution. By matter of pride, Intel has not done this but AMD, Nvidia, Apple all do this.
- dfrage 7y ago
  I've heard entirely the opposite, that having a close relationship between chip designers and fabricators allows for higher performance designs. I don't know of anyone who interpreted AMD selling off its foundries as anything other than severe financial distress, and it worked supremely well for Intel while they stayed at least one step ahead of the competition. Enough so this is said to have wiped out a generation of CPU architects while Dennard scaling still worked, no matter how clever they were, Intel moving to its next process node wiped out their speed advantage. But it's a brittle model, if a company screws up a node and is too messed up to handle the failure gracefully, as Intel is doing with their "10nm", no doubt with pride as a factor. And it's not uncommon for institutions to permanently lose abilities, I'm not counting on Intel succeeding with their "7nm" node. On the third hand, we're now down to 2-3 high end CPU fab companies, Samsung, TSMC, and maybe Intel. That also can be a brittle thing.