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> "But to handle them with force seems a bit low. Why not take the high road?" How removed from society can you be to view disappearing, humilating and torturi

> "But to handle them with force seems a bit low. Why not take the high road?" How removed from society can you be to view disappearing, humilating and torturing citizens as "a bit low"? Have we forgotten the purpose of a government?

jjoonathan 7y ago
That person speaks from within the party. If he speaks less carefully, they will simply eject and ignore him, and then the party wouldn't even have someone in their circle calling these actions "a bit low." > Qiu Shike, a socialist writer and Xi supporter who is influential within some elite Communist Party circles, said carefully
- AbitofAsum 7y ago
  Oh interesting way to put it. Needing to avoid ejection from social circles must be a common motivator for most people. Now I am wondering how to tell if someone is masking a stronger feeling or not
  - maconic 7y ago
    Being banished from social circles is certainly one reason, but in this case I think it's fear of life or liberty by an authoritarian regime that has complete discretion to do so if you come across as speaking out against them. If you saw the recent HBO series on Cheronybl, you can see the pains with which one person is trying to relay the seriousness of the situation without making himself a target, opposition figure, enemy of the state, etc. I also remember hearing that Sadam Hussein underestimated how easily Iraq could be toppled in case of invasion because his military generals were too scared to speak truth.
conanbatt 7y ago
I have two ideas on this regard: The first is that Asian culture (including Japan, Korea) is profoundly dogmatic and hierarchical. They have a completely different moral-alignment with being obedient. The second is that over time, you can really achive the social transformation spouted by authoritarian governments. Russia was communist for 90 years. North korea approaching 70 years. After several generations what you have is the only thing that people know. As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all.
- wincy 7y ago
  With enough aggressive “pruning” (read: murders by a tyrannical and totalitarian government) in a population, natural selection inevitably takes its course. Anyone in North Korea who would speak up has long since escaped, been disappeared, or killed.
  - conanbatt 7y ago
    The scary generalization of this idea is that all governments engage in this activity to some degree. The liberty nutjobs really have a point about being intolerant to the minuscule interventions: by this model, its a way of domesticating people. OTOH I don't believe this idea is right, because humanity has had slavery and oppression since time immemorial, and freedom as we know it is relatively new. It is a natural desire of human beings to fight against glaring injustices, and for the oppressed to fight back.
    - maconic 7y ago
      They all do engage in some form of it... show me a modern Western country that doesn't have long sentences including death for sedition, subversion, or treason against "the State?" I think the only question is who gets to decide what are violations... because those charges are vague and arbitrary. Tax evasion or corruption charges have the same problem... I smile every time I read an article about someone arrested for tax evasion in Russia or corruption in China.
      - shakyshakyshaky 7y ago
        And, of course, the US is a major player in this. Chelsea Manning is still in solitary confinement.
- maconic 7y ago
  I think the second idea is the correct one, there are many counterpoints to the first one: you can see the same thing in any culture with the right ingredients, such as Germany in Nazi era (the movie "Downfall" captures the psychological difficulty very well), American prisoners during riots that all lie on the floor because there are consequences for not doing so, or "bending the knee" in Game of Thrones. Any situation where you risk harm to yourself or people that you care about by failing to be obedient, you will do so unless you are willing to suffer whatever the known consequences will be for failing to do so. > As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all. It shouldn't be amazing, as a Westener, considering slavery was legally allowed and enforced in the West for longer than any alternate authoritarian regime in modern times. Just consider slavery in American from 1776-1865... I can't think of any authoritarian regime that lasted that long... North Korean regime (1948-present), Soviet regime (1917-1989), Chinese regime (1949-present), were/are close but still haven't yet achieved the length of authoritarianism exercised over some arbitrary portion of its populace.
im3w1l 7y ago
Keep in mind that "a bit low" is a translation. The tone may not be exactly the same as the original.

jjoonathan 7y ago

That person speaks from within the party. If he speaks less carefully, they will simply eject and ignore him, and then the party wouldn't even have someone in their circle calling these actions "a bit low." > Qiu Shike, a socialist writer and Xi supporter who is influential within some elite Communist Party circles, said carefully

AbitofAsum 7y ago
Oh interesting way to put it. Needing to avoid ejection from social circles must be a common motivator for most people. Now I am wondering how to tell if someone is masking a stronger feeling or not
- maconic 7y ago
  Being banished from social circles is certainly one reason, but in this case I think it's fear of life or liberty by an authoritarian regime that has complete discretion to do so if you come across as speaking out against them. If you saw the recent HBO series on Cheronybl, you can see the pains with which one person is trying to relay the seriousness of the situation without making himself a target, opposition figure, enemy of the state, etc. I also remember hearing that Sadam Hussein underestimated how easily Iraq could be toppled in case of invasion because his military generals were too scared to speak truth.

conanbatt 7y ago

I have two ideas on this regard: The first is that Asian culture (including Japan, Korea) is profoundly dogmatic and hierarchical. They have a completely different moral-alignment with being obedient. The second is that over time, you can really achive the social transformation spouted by authoritarian governments. Russia was communist for 90 years. North korea approaching 70 years. After several generations what you have is the only thing that people know. As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all.

wincy 7y ago
With enough aggressive “pruning” (read: murders by a tyrannical and totalitarian government) in a population, natural selection inevitably takes its course. Anyone in North Korea who would speak up has long since escaped, been disappeared, or killed.
- conanbatt 7y ago
  The scary generalization of this idea is that all governments engage in this activity to some degree. The liberty nutjobs really have a point about being intolerant to the minuscule interventions: by this model, its a way of domesticating people. OTOH I don't believe this idea is right, because humanity has had slavery and oppression since time immemorial, and freedom as we know it is relatively new. It is a natural desire of human beings to fight against glaring injustices, and for the oppressed to fight back.
  - maconic 7y ago
    They all do engage in some form of it... show me a modern Western country that doesn't have long sentences including death for sedition, subversion, or treason against "the State?" I think the only question is who gets to decide what are violations... because those charges are vague and arbitrary. Tax evasion or corruption charges have the same problem... I smile every time I read an article about someone arrested for tax evasion in Russia or corruption in China.
    - shakyshakyshaky 7y ago
      And, of course, the US is a major player in this. Chelsea Manning is still in solitary confinement.
maconic 7y ago
I think the second idea is the correct one, there are many counterpoints to the first one: you can see the same thing in any culture with the right ingredients, such as Germany in Nazi era (the movie "Downfall" captures the psychological difficulty very well), American prisoners during riots that all lie on the floor because there are consequences for not doing so, or "bending the knee" in Game of Thrones. Any situation where you risk harm to yourself or people that you care about by failing to be obedient, you will do so unless you are willing to suffer whatever the known consequences will be for failing to do so. > As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all. It shouldn't be amazing, as a Westener, considering slavery was legally allowed and enforced in the West for longer than any alternate authoritarian regime in modern times. Just consider slavery in American from 1776-1865... I can't think of any authoritarian regime that lasted that long... North Korean regime (1948-present), Soviet regime (1917-1989), Chinese regime (1949-present), were/are close but still haven't yet achieved the length of authoritarianism exercised over some arbitrary portion of its populace.

im3w1l 7y ago

Keep in mind that "a bit low" is a translation. The tone may not be exactly the same as the original.