7 ms·

It's not invisible. We know. But we don't feel a sufficient motivation to do something about it.

EGreg 7y ago
Can you share videos that prove all this stuff? The more people shown in the re education camps, the better. Seriously, please post 10-20 links to videos so we can share them! Reports are going to have people claiming one thing and others denying that thing. This is a really serious human rights concern involving MILLIONS of people. It has been going on starting with Falun Gong since 2000 or earlier, then Uyghurs, Tibetans etc. It’s the word of the Chinese government vs all those groups. So it’s pretty clear this stuff is happening, but only because so many disparate groups are claiming this. But there is nothing like VIDEO to make clear what exactly is happening. We need to have these videos in order to share them. Same as Tienemen Square videos.
- Moru 7y ago
  I guess it's not very safe to show up at a camp with a camera, looking like a journalist from outside China.
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    In the age of cheap smartphones and the allways existence of desperate people who have nothing left to loose, I think its highly unlikely that videos of such camps could not get out. Not if it is on that scale. (just refering to the argument, I did not check whether the camps exists or videos) On the other hand, such camps would not look much different from prisons, so I doubt you can expect KZ style pictures. Edit: just wondering, is my argument really that bad, or am I dealing with patriotic bite reflexes?
  - EGreg 7y ago
    I don’t care who does it. There are cellphones everywhere today. Millions of detainees, I am sure there are videos somewhere! I think that the following devices would be REALLY useful not just for human rights but proving what happened in an altercation: A tiny device that can record video or video, perhaps embedded in the clothing or body of a person. The stream is ENCRYPTED AND THEN transmitted to local towers or wifi or whatever, and finds its way to some servers. Maybe via a DHT routing. Anyway, these servers store the encrypted data and the keys are generated by Shamir Secret Sharing so 3 or more parties can come together and decrypt the video. In countries with rule of law, this could be used to figure out rapes on campus, by having such cameras in every dorm and bedroom. The keys would be obtained during a court case only. In human rights cases, the keys would be generated by human rights organizations. So this will eliminate “peeing toms” and “spying” by having warrants for decrypton of a video strean, and curation by trusted agencies what gets shown to the public.
- Hasknewbie 7y ago
  What a bizarre comment, these camps have been widely reported and nobody serious disputes their existence. But hey, here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chinese+internment+camps http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chinese+internment+camps
  - EGreg 7y ago
    I didn’t say they weren’t widely reported. I asked for the best VIDEO evidence from inside, showing the most people and smoking guns It’s the difference between hearsay and video evidence. Like when people say the IDF harasses people in the West Bank, or cops kill unarmed Black people, and people dispute it one way or the other. But having video reveals exactly WHAT is happening. The more context for the video, the better.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  I bet that's what all of the Americans and Europeans we would consider "Nazi sympathizers" said about the camps in Germany, too.
fredsir 7y ago
Indeed. We can’t openly talk shit about our trading partners, lest act against their will. It’s just not good business, ethics be damned.
- simonh 7y ago
  That’s a really strange thing to say in the middle of a rapidly escalating, open trade war.
  - the_duke 7y ago
    We are quite far from a real trade war. Right now it's still more of a civilized sparring.
    - natch 7y ago
      “rapidly escalating”
    - lovedva 7y ago
      A real trade war would be devastating for China both economically and politically. Imagine this 300m workers having nothing to do all day but also no income to buy the rice to feed their families. The rest of the world could easily get by by moving production lines and factories to Vietnam and Indonesia and South America, etc, while paying a flat “tax” in increased prices across the board for cheap products.
  - makomk 7y ago
    You mean the trade war that you must oppose if you wish to be seen as a decent, intelligent person? The trade war that the entire mainstream media portrays as a delusional, racist folly? That trade war?
soulofmischief 7y ago
I'd go stand in front of a tank right now. Like what are we actually supposed to do? I have tons of motivation to do something about the largest totalitarian regime. Just tell me where to go and what to do. I woulnd't assume that quite a few people don't feel this way. The issue isn't lack of motivation. It's the lack of any sort of leverage over a giant totalitarian foreign government.
- Leary 7y ago
  No need to stand in front of a tank. Go convince some Chinese people you know that what is happening in XinJiang is a bad idea.
  - dtech 7y ago
    How? Chinese folk don't hang around western internet sites, if they can even access them and read English. Going there and spreading that message seems like a bad idea.
    - theseadroid 7y ago
      I can tell you there are plenty on HN, myself included. I mean if you wanna make a bigger impact you can learn Mandarin and maybe go to China to meet some more people. Actually there are plenty of Chinese in SFBA or Seattle already. Have you talked to some of them???
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        Have you learned Mandarin?? That seems like a large amount of time to devote to something, only to go to China and immediately get disappeared after contacting a plainclothes cop.
        theseadroid 7y ago
        From your previous comment, you dare to stand in front of a tank, yet you wont put in the effort to learn Mandarin. I dont know about others but that's pretty irony to me. What's more, you replied without read my comment (or misread?). I said I'm a Chinese in the first sentence. I would like to have conversations with people who are serious about the matter but even on HN where people are rational and logical in most other topics are not showing their best when it comes to topics about China. Anyway here's one guy who learned chinese: https://www.youtube.com/user/jaredfaa https://www.youtube.com/user/jaredfaa (he's a bigger influencer on bilibili coz youtube is unfortunately blocked in China) here's a guy went around the world and passed China without knowing Mandarin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjI1O11S8KY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjI1O11S8KY (one of his several vidoes) Anyway, ignorance promotes fear. Understand the problem first before propose solutions.
akvadrako 7y ago
Well assuming you aren't Chinese, it's not our place to get involved in their internal issues. But that doesn't mean we have to deal with people we don't like. The USA at least is doing something which respects their sovereignty and reduces their power.

Can you share videos that prove all this stuff? The more people shown in the re education camps, the better. Seriously, please post 10-20 links to videos so we can share them! Reports are going to have people claiming one thing and others denying that thing. This is a really serious human rights concern involving MILLIONS of people. It has been going on starting with Falun Gong since 2000 or earlier, then Uyghurs, Tibetans etc. It’s the word of the Chinese government vs all those groups. So it’s pretty clear this stuff is happening, but only because so many disparate groups are claiming this. But there is nothing like VIDEO to make clear what exactly is happening. We need to have these videos in order to share them. Same as Tienemen Square videos.

Moru 7y ago
I guess it's not very safe to show up at a camp with a camera, looking like a journalist from outside China.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  In the age of cheap smartphones and the allways existence of desperate people who have nothing left to loose, I think its highly unlikely that videos of such camps could not get out. Not if it is on that scale. (just refering to the argument, I did not check whether the camps exists or videos) On the other hand, such camps would not look much different from prisons, so I doubt you can expect KZ style pictures. Edit: just wondering, is my argument really that bad, or am I dealing with patriotic bite reflexes?
- EGreg 7y ago
  I don’t care who does it. There are cellphones everywhere today. Millions of detainees, I am sure there are videos somewhere! I think that the following devices would be REALLY useful not just for human rights but proving what happened in an altercation: A tiny device that can record video or video, perhaps embedded in the clothing or body of a person. The stream is ENCRYPTED AND THEN transmitted to local towers or wifi or whatever, and finds its way to some servers. Maybe via a DHT routing. Anyway, these servers store the encrypted data and the keys are generated by Shamir Secret Sharing so 3 or more parties can come together and decrypt the video. In countries with rule of law, this could be used to figure out rapes on campus, by having such cameras in every dorm and bedroom. The keys would be obtained during a court case only. In human rights cases, the keys would be generated by human rights organizations. So this will eliminate “peeing toms” and “spying” by having warrants for decrypton of a video strean, and curation by trusted agencies what gets shown to the public.
Hasknewbie 7y ago
What a bizarre comment, these camps have been widely reported and nobody serious disputes their existence. But hey, here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chinese+internment+camps http://lmgtfy.com/?q=chinese+internment+camps
- EGreg 7y ago
  I didn’t say they weren’t widely reported. I asked for the best VIDEO evidence from inside, showing the most people and smoking guns It’s the difference between hearsay and video evidence. Like when people say the IDF harasses people in the West Bank, or cops kill unarmed Black people, and people dispute it one way or the other. But having video reveals exactly WHAT is happening. The more context for the video, the better.
soulofmischief 7y ago
I bet that's what all of the Americans and Europeans we would consider "Nazi sympathizers" said about the camps in Germany, too.

fredsir 7y ago

Indeed. We can’t openly talk shit about our trading partners, lest act against their will. It’s just not good business, ethics be damned.

simonh 7y ago
That’s a really strange thing to say in the middle of a rapidly escalating, open trade war.
- the_duke 7y ago
  We are quite far from a real trade war. Right now it's still more of a civilized sparring.
  - natch 7y ago
    “rapidly escalating”
  - lovedva 7y ago
    A real trade war would be devastating for China both economically and politically. Imagine this 300m workers having nothing to do all day but also no income to buy the rice to feed their families. The rest of the world could easily get by by moving production lines and factories to Vietnam and Indonesia and South America, etc, while paying a flat “tax” in increased prices across the board for cheap products.
- makomk 7y ago
  You mean the trade war that you must oppose if you wish to be seen as a decent, intelligent person? The trade war that the entire mainstream media portrays as a delusional, racist folly? That trade war?

soulofmischief 7y ago

I'd go stand in front of a tank right now. Like what are we actually supposed to do? I have tons of motivation to do something about the largest totalitarian regime. Just tell me where to go and what to do. I woulnd't assume that quite a few people don't feel this way. The issue isn't lack of motivation. It's the lack of any sort of leverage over a giant totalitarian foreign government.

Leary 7y ago
No need to stand in front of a tank. Go convince some Chinese people you know that what is happening in XinJiang is a bad idea.
- dtech 7y ago
  How? Chinese folk don't hang around western internet sites, if they can even access them and read English. Going there and spreading that message seems like a bad idea.
  - theseadroid 7y ago
    I can tell you there are plenty on HN, myself included. I mean if you wanna make a bigger impact you can learn Mandarin and maybe go to China to meet some more people. Actually there are plenty of Chinese in SFBA or Seattle already. Have you talked to some of them???
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      Have you learned Mandarin?? That seems like a large amount of time to devote to something, only to go to China and immediately get disappeared after contacting a plainclothes cop.
      - theseadroid 7y ago
        From your previous comment, you dare to stand in front of a tank, yet you wont put in the effort to learn Mandarin. I dont know about others but that's pretty irony to me. What's more, you replied without read my comment (or misread?). I said I'm a Chinese in the first sentence. I would like to have conversations with people who are serious about the matter but even on HN where people are rational and logical in most other topics are not showing their best when it comes to topics about China. Anyway here's one guy who learned chinese: https://www.youtube.com/user/jaredfaa https://www.youtube.com/user/jaredfaa (he's a bigger influencer on bilibili coz youtube is unfortunately blocked in China) here's a guy went around the world and passed China without knowing Mandarin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjI1O11S8KY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjI1O11S8KY (one of his several vidoes) Anyway, ignorance promotes fear. Understand the problem first before propose solutions.

akvadrako 7y ago

Well assuming you aren't Chinese, it's not our place to get involved in their internal issues. But that doesn't mean we have to deal with people we don't like. The USA at least is doing something which respects their sovereignty and reduces their power.