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I think you should, instead, listen to what the students are actually trying to say rather than react superficially on the fact that they label themselves as "c

I think you should, instead, listen to what the students are actually trying to say rather than react superficially on the fact that they label themselves as "communist." When a government, regardless of political orientation, "disappears people" that's a sign that something is rotten to the core.

781 7y ago
It's interesting to note that the more "capitalist" a country is, the less likely is for it's citizens to "disappear"
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  You probably mean the more "democratic" a county is. Democracies require cover stories for anything. You don't just disappear, you commit suicide or get thrown in prison on rape charges, possession of drugs, child porn, etc. But all the nasty things dictatorships do are still there.
  - 781 7y ago
    Fair enough. Can you point out some groups of people who "got suicided/..." in France/US/UK in recent years because of their political views? More interestingly, while some have voted communism in, nobody seems able to vote communism out, without serious military involvement. I wonder why...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - lixtra 7y ago
      This is kind of a trick question because only some will believe it’s a cover story while others believe it’s true. President Trump is actually a good example that everyone could agree on: considering the amount of dirt thrown at him it a clear sign of system failure because either: - he’s still not impeached or - his aides go down by presumably made up cover stories
  - lixtra 7y ago
    But cover stories don’t scale well. This provides against mass actions.
    - zzzcpan 7y ago
      "War on drugs" in the US did scale well.
  - the_duke 7y ago
    That's ridiculous whataboutism. Sure, such things sadly happen even in the Western world, but you can't seriously equate that with the scale of things happening in China.
natch 7y ago
I think their choice of ideologies is perfectly relevant to what is rotten. Historical attempts at socialism in their country are exactly what set up the conditions for the rotten core you speak of to come about. So if these students had their way, they would simply (albeit indirectly, inadvertently, over time) recreate the same rotten core. This doesn’t excuse the current regime but it is worthy of attention. I’m assuming there can be no perfect (reality matches theory) implementation of socialism, but I think that’s a good assumption. And rather than pay attention only to the symptoms instead of the root causes, I think it’s good to pay attention to both.
repolfx 7y ago
I did read the article and their views. But I'm not sure I missed anything. The students in question sound like classical Marxists: one literally takes photos of himself with a clenched fist. Obviously the Chinese government is rotten to the core. It's a late-stage communist government, it's how all such governments turn out. The very important question which needs to be answered (and so far, nobody is even trying to answer it in this thread), is why does a student who lives within that system want to double down on it? I suspect the answer is simple and doesn't need much analysis. One of the most common stereotypes about communists is they always claim that the failure of communist states is because they didn't do it right - that they were just fake or hijacked socialist revolutions. Qiu is making that very claim in the article. But there have been many attempts to do communism right, so why do these people not accept that the lack of any success cases means the ideology is wrong?

781 7y ago

It's interesting to note that the more "capitalist" a country is, the less likely is for it's citizens to "disappear"

zzzcpan 7y ago
You probably mean the more "democratic" a county is. Democracies require cover stories for anything. You don't just disappear, you commit suicide or get thrown in prison on rape charges, possession of drugs, child porn, etc. But all the nasty things dictatorships do are still there.
- 781 7y ago
  Fair enough. Can you point out some groups of people who "got suicided/..." in France/US/UK in recent years because of their political views? More interestingly, while some have voted communism in, nobody seems able to vote communism out, without serious military involvement. I wonder why...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - lixtra 7y ago
    This is kind of a trick question because only some will believe it’s a cover story while others believe it’s true. President Trump is actually a good example that everyone could agree on: considering the amount of dirt thrown at him it a clear sign of system failure because either: - he’s still not impeached or - his aides go down by presumably made up cover stories
- lixtra 7y ago
  But cover stories don’t scale well. This provides against mass actions.
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    "War on drugs" in the US did scale well.
- the_duke 7y ago
  That's ridiculous whataboutism. Sure, such things sadly happen even in the Western world, but you can't seriously equate that with the scale of things happening in China.

natch 7y ago

I think their choice of ideologies is perfectly relevant to what is rotten. Historical attempts at socialism in their country are exactly what set up the conditions for the rotten core you speak of to come about. So if these students had their way, they would simply (albeit indirectly, inadvertently, over time) recreate the same rotten core. This doesn’t excuse the current regime but it is worthy of attention. I’m assuming there can be no perfect (reality matches theory) implementation of socialism, but I think that’s a good assumption. And rather than pay attention only to the symptoms instead of the root causes, I think it’s good to pay attention to both.

repolfx 7y ago

I did read the article and their views. But I'm not sure I missed anything. The students in question sound like classical Marxists: one literally takes photos of himself with a clenched fist. Obviously the Chinese government is rotten to the core. It's a late-stage communist government, it's how all such governments turn out. The very important question which needs to be answered (and so far, nobody is even trying to answer it in this thread), is why does a student who lives within that system want to double down on it? I suspect the answer is simple and doesn't need much analysis. One of the most common stereotypes about communists is they always claim that the failure of communist states is because they didn't do it right - that they were just fake or hijacked socialist revolutions. Qiu is making that very claim in the article. But there have been many attempts to do communism right, so why do these people not accept that the lack of any success cases means the ideology is wrong?