13 ms·

Well, fine, let's all move to a major metro area then; what's the population threshold it needs to be above in order for it to be worth considering? Sheesh. I

Well, fine, let's all move to a major metro area then; what's the population threshold it needs to be above in order for it to be worth considering? Sheesh. I'm in no position at this point to debate the macroeconomic benefits or handicaps for software industry employment in different locales, but it seems ludicrous to state with such authoritative certainty that "real software shops" can't be found in whatever towns and smaller cities you'd like to cite, presumably just because they're not big enough or not renowned enough to make the shortlist. Regarding tone: I think Spolsky's intended point was absolutely correct, but the narrative was littered with entirely unnecessary backhand comments related only to geography and not Ashton's prospects therein. This lines up nicely with all sorts of "advice" doled out on the interwebs about how you've just gotta be in one of these 12 (or whatever) blessed cities if you're in software, and surprised and sideways derogatory comments that are made if you're not. If it sounds like I'm somewhat pissed and sick of the drumbeat, that's because I am.

tptacek 16y ago
That's a great question. Let's try to answer it. Grand Rapids is a moderately big city. But if you're picking cities, it's too small to target for a software dev career. Ann Arbor is slightly smaller than Grand Rapids with a much better ecosystem for software developers. I had the pleasure of working there for 4 years. My advice is, if you're picking cities, don't move to Ann Arbor unless you're starting a company and can afford to do that serially in Ann Arbor (it's hard to consult there!) or are prepared to move when your company fails. There are, like, 4-5 companies within commute distance of A2 that can hire you, and they all know it. Don't move to Detroit. You'll be eaten by packs of wild dogs. Milwaukee is much bigger than Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids. But you'd be hard pressed to find someone advocating it as a good town to build a career in. Lesson to learn: the smaller the metro area you pick, the more important it is that the area be on an upswing and not a downswing. Chicago is a big city. So is MSP. It's not insightful to say "go work in Chicago" since, as your post points out, "big cities aren't a salve for your career" (pphrase). Madison, WI is about 3x bigger than A2 or Grand Rapids. Madison is, by comparison to most of the major metros in the US, a small town. But it has a great ecosystem of developers, a university culture, and lots of employers. So let's go for cities like Madison. Madison is my threshold. There's an answer. Feel free to debate it, but let's not handwave; I'm not making an abstract point here.
- dabent 16y ago
  Both Madsion (Go Badgers!) and Ann Arbor have major universities, which probably spurs the developer culture. It isn't just size that matters. Of course, Silicon Valley has Stanford and Boston has both Harvard and MIT which is part of what makes them strong. It's a combination of things that makes for a good developer city, pg touches on that here: http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Madison has two things: a sizeable metro area with diverse employers, and a tech university culture. Ann Arbor only has one of those things, because the "diverse employers" belong to Detroit Metro instead of A2. Indianapolis does not have a notable tech university culture (I hope I'm not offending Indy people with that), but it's large enough that it's employer base affords opportunities to be selective about jobs. I've never seen anyone recommend Indy as a good place to start a tech career, but I'm agreeing with the original article: it's doable in a city like Indy. It's not doable in Grand Rapids, I don't think. I know people who live in GR and they're happy and they've put down roots and it seems a lovely place to build a family, but setting up shop in Grand Rapids is unlikely to be your escape from dead-end coding jobs.
    - sudont 16y ago
      While you're right about Madison's culture, I couldn't find crap for work there. MPLS has been much, much better to me. The tech community there is much too insular: web jobs are nonexistent and everything else is pretty much biotech or through the university (Masters degrees then are a minimum requirement). I say this having interned around the town at a top design shop, with no workable industry contacts resulting from.
    - zaphar 16y ago
      I have an in-law who works in the Grand Rapids area for sourceforge. He telecommutes. If you limit the scope of this discussion to exclude telecommuting then your right. However, thats not your only option.
neild 16y ago
I grew up in a small town in the Connecticut countryside. I now life in the SFBA. Why? Because there are no software companies in my hometown. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. I briefly had a computer-related summer job in my hometown, changing backup tapes and inventorying hardware for a local racing school. They were in the process of trying (and failing) to replace an antiquated event booking system with something new. I might have managed to finagle an actual programming job there, doing the job that their existing contractor was failing to do. Of course, I'd have been working alone. Instead, I moved to California. In the years since then, I've worked with and learned from many amazing people. I'm ten times the programmer I would have been if I'd stayed at home. Are there software jobs outside the SFBA, Austin, Seattle, Boston, and the other big hub cities? Of course, and if you find one, good for you. But if you're sitting in a dead-end job in a city with no better prospects, your only choices are to stagnate or to move. And if you're going to move, there's much to be said for going where the jobs are.
sp332 16y ago
> Well, fine, let's all move to a major metro area then People are moving, check out the graphs on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization

tptacek 16y ago

That's a great question. Let's try to answer it. Grand Rapids is a moderately big city. But if you're picking cities, it's too small to target for a software dev career. Ann Arbor is slightly smaller than Grand Rapids with a much better ecosystem for software developers. I had the pleasure of working there for 4 years. My advice is, if you're picking cities, don't move to Ann Arbor unless you're starting a company and can afford to do that serially in Ann Arbor (it's hard to consult there!) or are prepared to move when your company fails. There are, like, 4-5 companies within commute distance of A2 that can hire you, and they all know it. Don't move to Detroit. You'll be eaten by packs of wild dogs. Milwaukee is much bigger than Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids. But you'd be hard pressed to find someone advocating it as a good town to build a career in. Lesson to learn: the smaller the metro area you pick, the more important it is that the area be on an upswing and not a downswing. Chicago is a big city. So is MSP. It's not insightful to say "go work in Chicago" since, as your post points out, "big cities aren't a salve for your career" (pphrase). Madison, WI is about 3x bigger than A2 or Grand Rapids. Madison is, by comparison to most of the major metros in the US, a small town. But it has a great ecosystem of developers, a university culture, and lots of employers. So let's go for cities like Madison. Madison is my threshold. There's an answer. Feel free to debate it, but let's not handwave; I'm not making an abstract point here.

dabent 16y ago
Both Madsion (Go Badgers!) and Ann Arbor have major universities, which probably spurs the developer culture. It isn't just size that matters. Of course, Silicon Valley has Stanford and Boston has both Harvard and MIT which is part of what makes them strong. It's a combination of things that makes for a good developer city, pg touches on that here: http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
- tptacek 16y ago
  Madison has two things: a sizeable metro area with diverse employers, and a tech university culture. Ann Arbor only has one of those things, because the "diverse employers" belong to Detroit Metro instead of A2. Indianapolis does not have a notable tech university culture (I hope I'm not offending Indy people with that), but it's large enough that it's employer base affords opportunities to be selective about jobs. I've never seen anyone recommend Indy as a good place to start a tech career, but I'm agreeing with the original article: it's doable in a city like Indy. It's not doable in Grand Rapids, I don't think. I know people who live in GR and they're happy and they've put down roots and it seems a lovely place to build a family, but setting up shop in Grand Rapids is unlikely to be your escape from dead-end coding jobs.
  - sudont 16y ago
    While you're right about Madison's culture, I couldn't find crap for work there. MPLS has been much, much better to me. The tech community there is much too insular: web jobs are nonexistent and everything else is pretty much biotech or through the university (Masters degrees then are a minimum requirement). I say this having interned around the town at a top design shop, with no workable industry contacts resulting from.
  - zaphar 16y ago
    I have an in-law who works in the Grand Rapids area for sourceforge. He telecommutes. If you limit the scope of this discussion to exclude telecommuting then your right. However, thats not your only option.

neild 16y ago

I grew up in a small town in the Connecticut countryside. I now life in the SFBA. Why? Because there are no software companies in my hometown. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. I briefly had a computer-related summer job in my hometown, changing backup tapes and inventorying hardware for a local racing school. They were in the process of trying (and failing) to replace an antiquated event booking system with something new. I might have managed to finagle an actual programming job there, doing the job that their existing contractor was failing to do. Of course, I'd have been working alone. Instead, I moved to California. In the years since then, I've worked with and learned from many amazing people. I'm ten times the programmer I would have been if I'd stayed at home. Are there software jobs outside the SFBA, Austin, Seattle, Boston, and the other big hub cities? Of course, and if you find one, good for you. But if you're sitting in a dead-end job in a city with no better prospects, your only choices are to stagnate or to move. And if you're going to move, there's much to be said for going where the jobs are.

sp332 16y ago

> Well, fine, let's all move to a major metro area then People are moving, check out the graphs on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization