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Bose headphones spy on listeners: lawsuit (2017)
- cbluth 7y agoNeeds a (2017)
- whatgoodisaroad 7y agoThis is from 2017. IIRC it was quite widely reported then as well.
- tinus_hn 7y agohttps://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2019/04/02/bose-spying-claim-not-dismissed/ https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2019/04/02/bose-spying-clai... This is the latest update I found, about this decision: https://www.kelleydrye.com/getmedia/e72feb27-aba4-4229-9062-5e08f98606ff/1144000-1144892-https-ecf-ilnd-uscourts-gov-doc1-067122213970.aspx https://www.kelleydrye.com/getmedia/e72feb27-aba4-4229-9062-...
- ncmncm 7y agoFirst I heard of it. Mind you, I would never, ever buy a Bose product, or install their app if I got one, so this is kind of academic for me.
- ia42 7y agoAnd why not? They seem to have the best noise cancellation system on the market, even when compared to headsets twice the price.
- lightedman 7y agoMy gun range headphones have physical noise elimination by nature of their construction. Better than anything Bose can do digitally.
- avip 7y agoprev. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14148145 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14148145
- tinus_hn 7y agoClearly this man is seeking a fat settlement but this kind of behavior by Bose is indeed sleazy, even if it is mentioned in the small print most people wouldn’t expect that and read it.
- perfmode 7y agoIsn’t hitting corps with settlements an effective mechanism in the consumer protection toolkit?
- a-dub 7y agoit shouldn't be necessary.
- perfmode 7y agoI’m curious what you suggest... how things ought to work in your mind.
- Sharlin 7y agoThe EU seems to work fine without the sort of litigation culture the US has. Punitive damages aren’t a thing here either, and not all menber countries even have class action lawsuits in their legislation.
- a-dub 7y agoidk maybe robust consumer privacy protection laws with career ending penalties for running afoul of them?
- avip 7y agoWho would not expect a music streaming app to collect data on the music customers listen to? I completely expect spotify, youtube, and any other streaming app to do the same? How else could you provide discovery to customers?
- 7y ago
- loki2005 7y agoWhy should one need an app to control their headphones? Give me hardware interface to control the functions.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- algesten 7y agoThe one thing I use the app for is system updates.
- jmiserez 7y agoI too have these headphones. I don't really know what the frequent firmware updates do, or if they are necessary. I can understand why the mechanism for firmware updates exists, but this constant updating of every single thing is insane. Bluetooth headphones aren't even exposed/connected to the internet.
- hadrien01 7y agoYou can update the headphones through a PC application: https://btu.bose.com/ https://btu.bose.com/
- tty2300 7y agoI used the app breifly when setting mine up before deleting it. The 2 things I used it for was updating the firmware and remapping the voice control button to instead change the noise canceling amount.
- readparryrepost 7y agoI'd be fascinated to see whether a similar degree of monitoring is going on in a post-GDPR context. A data request should return everything as Bose is an EU based firm with some customers within the EU surely?
- fyfy18 7y agoThe GDPR haters need to realise this is exactly the sort of thing it is meant to prevent. The EU legal landscape is very different from the US, in that regulations protect consumers vs the threat of class action lawsuits. What would happen here if Bose were a solely EU company with no US presense, who would you sue then?
- jacquesm 7y agoThe GDPR haters on the tech side usually work for companies (or are founders of) that do stuff that they really shouldn't be doing.
- akersten 7y agoThe "GDPR haters" realize that this is the sort of thing it is meant to prevent. They probably want to see this kind of thing prevented too. But they also realize that intention is hard to codify in law, and when their concerns about an overly non-specific and broad legislation are dismissed with "well obviously the GDPR intends this and not that, it's such a straightforward legislation to read, anyone can understand it," it's easy to become a "hater" - because they realize that there is a lot of latitude in interpreting the law. It would be more constructive to try to understand the position of people you disagree with, instead of labeling them as "haters" - just because someone is critical of the GDPR doesn't mean they don't value privacy.
- tty2300 7y agoThis is exactly why I refuse to use an app for setting up hardware. Bose pushes really hard to get you to use an app for something that really doesn't require an app.
- Nextgrid 7y agoThis itself should be a red flag. If they heavily push something for a task that clearly has no reason to require that something then it’s probably fishy. Same scenario about PayPal offering that I receive receipts in Messenger or Deliveroo offering WhatsApp notifications.
- lstamour 7y agoIf you want to use the Alexa/Google button on the QC 35 II, you’d need the app. Also to configure Bluetooth settings and update the headphones’ firmware. I use it daily to connect or disconnect named devices from the headphones to either improve connectivity (fewer devices connected, better bandwidth) or save battery (fewer devices connected, battery lasts a bit longer). I’m happy to report there’a a toggle in the app’s settings and that it now clearly indicates it sends the song data for diagnostic purposes if checked. (And yes, I disabled it.)
- tjoff 7y agoI assume that is checked by default, so the instant you installed everything they can swoop up from any and all caches is transmitted. Then any random update they can forget to preserve that setting and redo it. It breaks my heart that it isn't even hyperbole. The future sucks. It seems the goal of most companies is to create a seemingly legitimate need for apps/permissions, no matter how convoluted, just so they can get access to data.
- dgzl 7y agoI bought the QC35 just before the new edition came out. I never downloaded the app because "yeah fuck that..." and all I wanted was some nose-cancelling headphones. I'm still very much in the fence about voice recognition.
- leowoo91 7y agoI've used QuietComfort (25) in past, I've never heard of any app that was available to configure it.
- lstamour 7y agoIt’s very common to have an app for Bluetooth QC 35 headphones, as these headphones play back digital audio (they basically have built-in iPods minus the on-board storage), and in their newest variants, ship with Google or Alexa via the app. But primarily you’d get the app to customize EQ, customize which devices are connected, troubleshoot the Bluetooth connection or perform software upgrades (an essential task these days...)
- WAHa_06x36 7y agoThere isn't. The app is for the 35s.
- Ice_cream_suit 7y agoThe outcome : "The court dismissed Zak’s novel wiretap and eavesdropping claims, writing that the complaint failed to adequately allege that Bose is not a party to communication, as is necessary for violations of these statutes. “ … [T]he relevant inquiry,” the court wrote, “is whether the defendant is a participant in the conversation, as opposed to a nonparticipant that uses other means to gain access to – i.e., intercept – the communication.” Bose wasn’t an intruding third party, so this line of attack was shut down. Nonetheless, the unjust enrichment and Illinois state consumer fraud charges survived. And, to make things a little more interesting for the defendant, the court left the door open for Zak to file again under the Wiretap Act if he could prove “that Bose is in fact not a party to the communication or that Bose, while a party, nevertheless intercepted a communication with the purpose of committing a crime or tort independent from the alleged interception.”" https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=5499bec3-8a87-4dc0-a010-dae6249a2932 https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=5499bec3-8a87...
- zaroth 7y agoNot an intruding party?! Well who the heck invited them to the conversation!! I was assuming it would be thrown out because they only collected metadata and if they didn’t pull full audio that they didn’t meet a required element. Luckily the wording implies that it’s not that the judge found from the evidence that they were an invited party, just that the claim failed to properly lay the foundation in their briefs? I hope they refile.
- davemp 7y agoIt looks like the app only sent song selections so there's no "communication" in general. > The alleged eavesdropping would deliver user information – including song selections . . . [GP's source] --- Honestly I think it might be worth looking into the idea of metadata collection as eavesdropping. Unless there's an implicit technical requirement for data, the company should need to explicitly request it. For phone lines it's obvious why the service provider is party to the communications: caller --> switching equipment --> callee The bose situation is more: user --> bluetooth --> headphones | +--> bose Though this sort of ruling might just drive everything to an even more disgusting state of centralized services so that companies can claim an implicit technical need for data.
- Angostura 7y agoIt looks as if there are quite a few Bose-made apps available for download in in the EU. Feels like a clears GDPR violation without active consent
- gffg 7y agoIt is worth pointing out that MIT owns Bose. 100%. Omar Bose left it to MIT in his will. He would be rolling in his grave if he saw what MIT was doing with it.
- JBorrow 7y agoMIT does not have any say in the running of the company, all their shares are non-voting
- ChrisLomont 7y agoMIT doesn’t own 100% of Bose; he didn’t leave it all to them.
- sjwright 7y agoFrom Wikipedia: In 2011, Bose donated a majority of the company's non-voting shares to MIT on the condition that the shares never be sold. Because these shares are non-voting, MIT does not participate in operations or governance of Bose Corporation. What the heck is the point of owning shares if you can't sell them and you can't influence the direction of the company? That sounds like an accountant's joke. (Presumably the benefit comes from the fact that Bose Corporation pays dividends, but nothing stops the other shareholders from deciding to cut or stop dividend payments. MIT certainly has no way to stop them.)
- woofwoofwoof 7y agoI agree that this is quite shady, but they require your explicit permission when you enable music sharing. My QC35s are great btw.
- tr33house 7y agoWhy do people build great companies then do unnecessary things to destroy them just for a few more dollars
- cecicasa 7y agoI have Bose QC35 and personally I think that app is great because: 1) you can select the level of noise cancellation, and I found that I appreciate more having a low level NC a part from when I am on a flight where I use high NC 2) you can select 2 devices to pair at the same time, having 2 laptops and my iPhone at work is great to be able to switch with an app That said, these two actions do not require to collect users data..so they should stop doing that without users’ consent
- deogeo 7y agoIf I planted a listening device in someone's home, I wouldn't be asked to 'stop doing that' - I'd go to jail.
- craftyguy 7y agoYou? Yes. "Tech" companies? Nope.
- tga 7y agoYou can configure the left button to switch between noise cancelling levels (yeah, using the app once) and switch between Bluetooth devices using the right button -- so the app isn't needed for daily operation.
- POTUS 7y agoQC35 doesn’t have a left button, that’s the QC35-2. Which sucks because i now need the app multiple times a day.
- falcolas 7y agoSwitching between paired devices can be done with the power slider, without the Bose app. I don’t know how to do #1 without the app though.
- EmilStenstrom 7y agoIf you start the app (Bose Connect, iOS), there's a setting called "Privacy Policy & Settings". There's one option there, which disables "Share data with Bose". I'm not saying that everyone will find it, but at least it's a solution for people that read Hacker News and wants to keep using the app.
- craftyguy 7y agoWhy do you need a special app to use headphones? Is this really what the future looks like?
- RKearney 7y agoYou don’t. The last pair of Bose headphones I had came with instructions to download the app which I just ignored. The headphones worked perfectly fine without the app.
- paranoidrobot 7y agoYou need it if you want to turn off or change the noise cancellation mode.
- hckrnwsthrwwy 7y agoThere is a button that cycles through high-low-no noise cancellation on mine
- rconti 7y agoNot on the first gen, however, I had no use for the app and deleted it after the first time I played with it. My plan was to download the app whenever I wanted to do something, then immediately delete.
- tty2300 7y agoBy default the button is set to use voice controls with your phone. The app let's you make it do anc controls
- JumpCrisscross 7y agoThe court’s opinion and order: https://f.datasrvr.com/fr1/319/48563/Bose_Memo_and_Order.pdf https://f.datasrvr.com/fr1/319/48563/Bose_Memo_and_Order.pdf.
- codedokode 7y agoWill there be similar consequences for Bose, as for Huawei? Like companies stopping dealing with them, Google revoking software licenses? Or if it is an American manufacturer, then it's ok to spy?
- neon_me 7y agoNew marketing strategy: Bose // We Listen to our Customers