5 ms·

So, one can get a good software development job in the midwest only if one is in Chicago? I think you missed the point of the post.

tptacek 16y ago
No, I get the point of the post. I disagree with part of it, and I object to its tone. The notion that you will do just as good with a software job in Zeeland, or Grand Rapids, or even Ann Arbor as you will in a major metro area is simply false. Below some threshold, you will do worse in lower-populated areas than in larger ones, because of labor mobility issues and reduced competition. Employers in small cities get better deals than employers in larger ones; that is, in fact, a good reason to start a company in a smaller city.† I cited Chicago because it's less than an hour and a half away from Zeeland. You could do just as well in Indy, in Cleveland, Minneapolis, or Des Moines. My tonal objection is simple: Spolsky was dead on in this post. If you are a junior developer in a back office job at Herman Miller and you are asking questions that indicate you're trying to do career planning, you need to get the hell out of Herman Miller and into a real software shop. They're all over the place in the US, but, sorry, they're not so much in Grand Haven or Davenport or Carbon County, PA. † Just to head off a tangential debate: if you're at a point in your career where you're asking how to impress your boss, starting a company is probably not your best next move.
- cemerick 16y ago
  Well, fine, let's all move to a major metro area then; what's the population threshold it needs to be above in order for it to be worth considering? Sheesh. I'm in no position at this point to debate the macroeconomic benefits or handicaps for software industry employment in different locales, but it seems ludicrous to state with such authoritative certainty that "real software shops" can't be found in whatever towns and smaller cities you'd like to cite, presumably just because they're not big enough or not renowned enough to make the shortlist. Regarding tone: I think Spolsky's intended point was absolutely correct, but the narrative was littered with entirely unnecessary backhand comments related only to geography and not Ashton's prospects therein. This lines up nicely with all sorts of "advice" doled out on the interwebs about how you've just gotta be in one of these 12 (or whatever) blessed cities if you're in software, and surprised and sideways derogatory comments that are made if you're not. If it sounds like I'm somewhat pissed and sick of the drumbeat, that's because I am.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    That's a great question. Let's try to answer it. Grand Rapids is a moderately big city. But if you're picking cities, it's too small to target for a software dev career. Ann Arbor is slightly smaller than Grand Rapids with a much better ecosystem for software developers. I had the pleasure of working there for 4 years. My advice is, if you're picking cities, don't move to Ann Arbor unless you're starting a company and can afford to do that serially in Ann Arbor (it's hard to consult there!) or are prepared to move when your company fails. There are, like, 4-5 companies within commute distance of A2 that can hire you, and they all know it. Don't move to Detroit. You'll be eaten by packs of wild dogs. Milwaukee is much bigger than Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids. But you'd be hard pressed to find someone advocating it as a good town to build a career in. Lesson to learn: the smaller the metro area you pick, the more important it is that the area be on an upswing and not a downswing. Chicago is a big city. So is MSP. It's not insightful to say "go work in Chicago" since, as your post points out, "big cities aren't a salve for your career" (pphrase). Madison, WI is about 3x bigger than A2 or Grand Rapids. Madison is, by comparison to most of the major metros in the US, a small town. But it has a great ecosystem of developers, a university culture, and lots of employers. So let's go for cities like Madison. Madison is my threshold. There's an answer. Feel free to debate it, but let's not handwave; I'm not making an abstract point here.
    - dabent 16y ago
      Both Madsion (Go Badgers!) and Ann Arbor have major universities, which probably spurs the developer culture. It isn't just size that matters. Of course, Silicon Valley has Stanford and Boston has both Harvard and MIT which is part of what makes them strong. It's a combination of things that makes for a good developer city, pg touches on that here: http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
      - tptacek 16y ago
        Madison has two things: a sizeable metro area with diverse employers, and a tech university culture. Ann Arbor only has one of those things, because the "diverse employers" belong to Detroit Metro instead of A2. Indianapolis does not have a notable tech university culture (I hope I'm not offending Indy people with that), but it's large enough that it's employer base affords opportunities to be selective about jobs. I've never seen anyone recommend Indy as a good place to start a tech career, but I'm agreeing with the original article: it's doable in a city like Indy. It's not doable in Grand Rapids, I don't think. I know people who live in GR and they're happy and they've put down roots and it seems a lovely place to build a family, but setting up shop in Grand Rapids is unlikely to be your escape from dead-end coding jobs.

tptacek 16y ago

No, I get the point of the post. I disagree with part of it, and I object to its tone. The notion that you will do just as good with a software job in Zeeland, or Grand Rapids, or even Ann Arbor as you will in a major metro area is simply false. Below some threshold, you will do worse in lower-populated areas than in larger ones, because of labor mobility issues and reduced competition. Employers in small cities get better deals than employers in larger ones; that is, in fact, a good reason to start a company in a smaller city.† I cited Chicago because it's less than an hour and a half away from Zeeland. You could do just as well in Indy, in Cleveland, Minneapolis, or Des Moines. My tonal objection is simple: Spolsky was dead on in this post. If you are a junior developer in a back office job at Herman Miller and you are asking questions that indicate you're trying to do career planning, you need to get the hell out of Herman Miller and into a real software shop. They're all over the place in the US, but, sorry, they're not so much in Grand Haven or Davenport or Carbon County, PA. † Just to head off a tangential debate: if you're at a point in your career where you're asking how to impress your boss, starting a company is probably not your best next move.

cemerick 16y ago
Well, fine, let's all move to a major metro area then; what's the population threshold it needs to be above in order for it to be worth considering? Sheesh. I'm in no position at this point to debate the macroeconomic benefits or handicaps for software industry employment in different locales, but it seems ludicrous to state with such authoritative certainty that "real software shops" can't be found in whatever towns and smaller cities you'd like to cite, presumably just because they're not big enough or not renowned enough to make the shortlist. Regarding tone: I think Spolsky's intended point was absolutely correct, but the narrative was littered with entirely unnecessary backhand comments related only to geography and not Ashton's prospects therein. This lines up nicely with all sorts of "advice" doled out on the interwebs about how you've just gotta be in one of these 12 (or whatever) blessed cities if you're in software, and surprised and sideways derogatory comments that are made if you're not. If it sounds like I'm somewhat pissed and sick of the drumbeat, that's because I am.
- tptacek 16y ago
  That's a great question. Let's try to answer it. Grand Rapids is a moderately big city. But if you're picking cities, it's too small to target for a software dev career. Ann Arbor is slightly smaller than Grand Rapids with a much better ecosystem for software developers. I had the pleasure of working there for 4 years. My advice is, if you're picking cities, don't move to Ann Arbor unless you're starting a company and can afford to do that serially in Ann Arbor (it's hard to consult there!) or are prepared to move when your company fails. There are, like, 4-5 companies within commute distance of A2 that can hire you, and they all know it. Don't move to Detroit. You'll be eaten by packs of wild dogs. Milwaukee is much bigger than Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids. But you'd be hard pressed to find someone advocating it as a good town to build a career in. Lesson to learn: the smaller the metro area you pick, the more important it is that the area be on an upswing and not a downswing. Chicago is a big city. So is MSP. It's not insightful to say "go work in Chicago" since, as your post points out, "big cities aren't a salve for your career" (pphrase). Madison, WI is about 3x bigger than A2 or Grand Rapids. Madison is, by comparison to most of the major metros in the US, a small town. But it has a great ecosystem of developers, a university culture, and lots of employers. So let's go for cities like Madison. Madison is my threshold. There's an answer. Feel free to debate it, but let's not handwave; I'm not making an abstract point here.
  - dabent 16y ago
    Both Madsion (Go Badgers!) and Ann Arbor have major universities, which probably spurs the developer culture. It isn't just size that matters. Of course, Silicon Valley has Stanford and Boston has both Harvard and MIT which is part of what makes them strong. It's a combination of things that makes for a good developer city, pg touches on that here: http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html http://paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
    - tptacek 16y ago
      Madison has two things: a sizeable metro area with diverse employers, and a tech university culture. Ann Arbor only has one of those things, because the "diverse employers" belong to Detroit Metro instead of A2. Indianapolis does not have a notable tech university culture (I hope I'm not offending Indy people with that), but it's large enough that it's employer base affords opportunities to be selective about jobs. I've never seen anyone recommend Indy as a good place to start a tech career, but I'm agreeing with the original article: it's doable in a city like Indy. It's not doable in Grand Rapids, I don't think. I know people who live in GR and they're happy and they've put down roots and it seems a lovely place to build a family, but setting up shop in Grand Rapids is unlikely to be your escape from dead-end coding jobs.