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It’s a nice thought, but even if we accept that the global population doing this would stem the tide of climate change (which I am doubtful it would), one quick

It’s a nice thought, but even if we accept that the global population doing this would stem the tide of climate change (which I am doubtful it would), one quickly realizes that there is no way that the entire global population is going to stop eating animals, and we are back to feeling hopeless. I’m increasingly convinced that carbon sequestration on industrial scales is the only serious way to solve this problem.

ianai 7y ago
Sequestration won’t do enough soon enough. This could be methane deposits evaporating from long frozen stores (permafrost and other sources). Methane is a much bigger problem for the atmosphere than carbon and sequestration won’t touch it. If quitting meat sounds tough, consider that I’ve heard the only effective thing to do would be immediately cease all ICE production/use. But oddly feeding cows seaweed would cut their methane production something like 90%.
- cageface 7y ago
  That’s a best case scenario based on lab results, not feeding cows at scale in the field. The number looks a lot closer to 50% in other trials. In a addition there are tremendous challenges in producing and transporting enough seaweed to implement this even if the kinks get worked out without doing as much damage to the environment. It’s good to keep all options on the table but seaweed is far from the silver bullet some people want it to be.
- WAHa_06x36 7y ago
  Methane also has a much shorter half-life in the atmosphere, though, so just decreasing production of it will have a big effect in the short to medium term.
jefflombardjr 7y ago
> I’m increasingly convinced that carbon sequestration on industrial scales is the only serious way to solve this problem. This is akin to trying to prevent the dust bowl[0] with giant vacuum cleaners. The environment is a system. We are a function of it, not the masters of it. We need to address the feedback loops causing this crisis that we are creating. Even if that would work - As others have pointed out, we don't have the luxury of time to deploy industrial scale carbon sequestration. And even if we did - this type of thinking still discounts nature's value. [1] Why do we think it is easier to develop and deploy industrial scale carbon sequestration equipment when we have plants that are pretty damned good at doing just that? [2] We need a total perspective change here. Nature doesn't need saving, the concrete deserts that are cities need green roofs and trees. We need to stop useless commutes and start working from home where applicable. We need to realize that lawns are an ecological disaster. [3] But above all else, We need to make environmental damage illegal and stop allowing companies to profit off of it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl [1]https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/this-is-why-putting-a-price-on-the-value-of-nature-could-help-the-environment/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/this-is-why-putting-a... [2]https://www.thoughtco.com/which-trees-offset-global-warming-1204209 https://www.thoughtco.com/which-trees-offset-global-warming-... [3]https://earther.gizmodo.com/lawns-are-an-ecological-disaster-1826070720 https://earther.gizmodo.com/lawns-are-an-ecological-disaster...
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  > we don't have the luxury of time to deploy industrial scale carbon sequestration Yes, we do. It's just that it costs money, and nobody wants to pay up. Same goes for all other realistic climate solutions that we have, unfortunately.
- jefflombardjr 7y ago
  * Above all else we need energy innovation: https://www.reddit.com/user/thisisbillgates/comments/auosel/ask_me_about_energy_innovation_and_climate_change/ei0j3vj?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x https://www.reddit.com/user/thisisbillgates/comments/auosel/...
vinc 7y ago
You know what's the simplest solution for carbon sequestration on industrial scales? Trees! And do you know how we could make space for more trees? By switching as much as we can to plant based diets because it takes a lot more plants to feed the animals that we eat instead of eating the plants directly. I did an estimation once for Western Europe using FAO stats[1] and by switching to a vegan diet we could roughly double the size of the forests, that's a massive scale! It'll help fighting the climate crisis and it'll also help solving the species extinction crisis in Western Europe. And the cool thing is that we don't need to wait for all the human population to switch overnight to a vegan diet, reducing meat and dairy consumption is a perfectly valid first step that everyone can do! The more people switch diets and the more space will become available for rewilding. We can already see plant based diets becoming more and more popular, and at the same time it seems that flexitarian diets are also getting quite mainstream. I think there's hope on that front at least. [1] https://vinc.cc/essays/changing-our-diet-for-a-wilder-world/ https://vinc.cc/essays/changing-our-diet-for-a-wilder-world/
devit 7y ago
Just outlaw animal husbandry and meat sales or apply high enough taxes to meat, and meat consumption will become small enough to be irrelevant. People can be vegan just fine, it's only a matter of habits.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Not everyone can be vegan just fine. Nutritional balance isn’t as well understood as many people think. I’m all for reducing the scale of meat, but for someone like me—who’s been urged to eat more red meat as a result of my deficiencies on top of supplementation—ceasing to do so will put my health back at risk. I don’t need to eat it every day, but it’s a near essential part of my diet. Problems of nutrient uptake are the reason medical researchers and professionals aren’t just telling us to go ahead, subside on non-nutrient cellulose fibre cakes and just pop a pill containing all essential nutrients and calories every day. https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/dietary-supplements-do-they-help-or-hurt https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/dietary-suppl...
ab8 7y ago
> there is no way that the entire global population is going to stop eating animals Hard problems always feel this way. <insert slavery reference> 1. No way to stop eating animals 2. No way to stop driving/flying 3. Don't ask me to change. YOU change. => no change in status quo
village-idiot 7y ago
Fun fact, properly managed cattle herds can sequester carbon on an industrial scale! Techniques like rotational intensive grazing can help build up the top soil and rich root system that used to cover the plains, sequestering carbon and making the soil far more fertile.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  To add to that— adjusting the diet of cattle to one of red algae has proven to reduce their methane emissions dramatically. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612452/how-seaweed-could-shrink-livestocks-global-carbon-hoofprint/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612452/how-seaweed-could-...
  - village-idiot 7y ago
    Methane release from cattle is largely a by-product of nitrogen fixing fertilizers putting natural methane eating bacteria in the soil into an inactive state. If we stopped using synthetic (and oil based!) fertilizers at least on where the cattle poop, a lot of that methane will get sequestered into the top soil too. Which also explains why the flatulence of 60-100m buffalo before the industrial era didn’t warm the planet.
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      Interesting. I haven’t looked that deeply into the problem, but I’ll have to read about that. I imagine some locales might be worse for that problem than others, yeah? Do you have any info you can share?
      - village-idiot 7y ago
        https://aem.asm.org/content/72/2/1346 https://aem.asm.org/content/72/2/1346
        52-6F-62 7y ago

ianai 7y ago

Sequestration won’t do enough soon enough. This could be methane deposits evaporating from long frozen stores (permafrost and other sources). Methane is a much bigger problem for the atmosphere than carbon and sequestration won’t touch it. If quitting meat sounds tough, consider that I’ve heard the only effective thing to do would be immediately cease all ICE production/use. But oddly feeding cows seaweed would cut their methane production something like 90%.

cageface 7y ago
That’s a best case scenario based on lab results, not feeding cows at scale in the field. The number looks a lot closer to 50% in other trials. In a addition there are tremendous challenges in producing and transporting enough seaweed to implement this even if the kinks get worked out without doing as much damage to the environment. It’s good to keep all options on the table but seaweed is far from the silver bullet some people want it to be.
WAHa_06x36 7y ago
Methane also has a much shorter half-life in the atmosphere, though, so just decreasing production of it will have a big effect in the short to medium term.

jefflombardjr 7y ago

> I’m increasingly convinced that carbon sequestration on industrial scales is the only serious way to solve this problem. This is akin to trying to prevent the dust bowl[0] with giant vacuum cleaners. The environment is a system. We are a function of it, not the masters of it. We need to address the feedback loops causing this crisis that we are creating. Even if that would work - As others have pointed out, we don't have the luxury of time to deploy industrial scale carbon sequestration. And even if we did - this type of thinking still discounts nature's value. [1] Why do we think it is easier to develop and deploy industrial scale carbon sequestration equipment when we have plants that are pretty damned good at doing just that? [2] We need a total perspective change here. Nature doesn't need saving, the concrete deserts that are cities need green roofs and trees. We need to stop useless commutes and start working from home where applicable. We need to realize that lawns are an ecological disaster. [3] But above all else, We need to make environmental damage illegal and stop allowing companies to profit off of it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl [1]https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/this-is-why-putting-a-price-on-the-value-of-nature-could-help-the-environment/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/this-is-why-putting-a... [2]https://www.thoughtco.com/which-trees-offset-global-warming-1204209 https://www.thoughtco.com/which-trees-offset-global-warming-... [3]https://earther.gizmodo.com/lawns-are-an-ecological-disaster-1826070720 https://earther.gizmodo.com/lawns-are-an-ecological-disaster...

semi-extrinsic 7y ago
> we don't have the luxury of time to deploy industrial scale carbon sequestration Yes, we do. It's just that it costs money, and nobody wants to pay up. Same goes for all other realistic climate solutions that we have, unfortunately.
jefflombardjr 7y ago
* Above all else we need energy innovation: https://www.reddit.com/user/thisisbillgates/comments/auosel/ask_me_about_energy_innovation_and_climate_change/ei0j3vj?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x https://www.reddit.com/user/thisisbillgates/comments/auosel/...

vinc 7y ago

You know what's the simplest solution for carbon sequestration on industrial scales? Trees! And do you know how we could make space for more trees? By switching as much as we can to plant based diets because it takes a lot more plants to feed the animals that we eat instead of eating the plants directly. I did an estimation once for Western Europe using FAO stats[1] and by switching to a vegan diet we could roughly double the size of the forests, that's a massive scale! It'll help fighting the climate crisis and it'll also help solving the species extinction crisis in Western Europe. And the cool thing is that we don't need to wait for all the human population to switch overnight to a vegan diet, reducing meat and dairy consumption is a perfectly valid first step that everyone can do! The more people switch diets and the more space will become available for rewilding. We can already see plant based diets becoming more and more popular, and at the same time it seems that flexitarian diets are also getting quite mainstream. I think there's hope on that front at least. [1] https://vinc.cc/essays/changing-our-diet-for-a-wilder-world/ https://vinc.cc/essays/changing-our-diet-for-a-wilder-world/

devit 7y ago

Just outlaw animal husbandry and meat sales or apply high enough taxes to meat, and meat consumption will become small enough to be irrelevant. People can be vegan just fine, it's only a matter of habits.

52-6F-62 7y ago
Not everyone can be vegan just fine. Nutritional balance isn’t as well understood as many people think. I’m all for reducing the scale of meat, but for someone like me—who’s been urged to eat more red meat as a result of my deficiencies on top of supplementation—ceasing to do so will put my health back at risk. I don’t need to eat it every day, but it’s a near essential part of my diet. Problems of nutrient uptake are the reason medical researchers and professionals aren’t just telling us to go ahead, subside on non-nutrient cellulose fibre cakes and just pop a pill containing all essential nutrients and calories every day. https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/dietary-supplements-do-they-help-or-hurt https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/dietary-suppl...

ab8 7y ago

> there is no way that the entire global population is going to stop eating animals Hard problems always feel this way. <insert slavery reference> 1. No way to stop eating animals 2. No way to stop driving/flying 3. Don't ask me to change. YOU change. => no change in status quo

village-idiot 7y ago

Fun fact, properly managed cattle herds can sequester carbon on an industrial scale! Techniques like rotational intensive grazing can help build up the top soil and rich root system that used to cover the plains, sequestering carbon and making the soil far more fertile.

52-6F-62 7y ago
To add to that— adjusting the diet of cattle to one of red algae has proven to reduce their methane emissions dramatically. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612452/how-seaweed-could-shrink-livestocks-global-carbon-hoofprint/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612452/how-seaweed-could-...
- village-idiot 7y ago
  Methane release from cattle is largely a by-product of nitrogen fixing fertilizers putting natural methane eating bacteria in the soil into an inactive state. If we stopped using synthetic (and oil based!) fertilizers at least on where the cattle poop, a lot of that methane will get sequestered into the top soil too. Which also explains why the flatulence of 60-100m buffalo before the industrial era didn’t warm the planet.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    Interesting. I haven’t looked that deeply into the problem, but I’ll have to read about that. I imagine some locales might be worse for that problem than others, yeah? Do you have any info you can share?
    - village-idiot 7y ago
      https://aem.asm.org/content/72/2/1346 https://aem.asm.org/content/72/2/1346
      - 52-6F-62 7y ago