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Look Portland, if you join the United States you can continue running your city as a democracy, we won’t mess with you, we just want you to join our country. 2

Look Portland, if you join the United States you can continue running your city as a democracy, we won’t mess with you, we just want you to join our country. 20 years later: Just kidding! Haha!

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
Hong Kong wasn't a democracy under British rule. It's become more democratic since the handover - not less. A lot of Chinese people are touchy when you tell them that part of their country - a part that was taken away from China at the point of a gun in the 1800s - isn't part of China. They're proud that Hong Kong was returned to China, because it's a symbol of China overcoming colonialism, after all the damage and humiliation colonial powers inflicted on China. The Chinese central government is mostly happy to let Hong Kong run itself, as long as they don't try to secede from China, and secession is the primary goal of many of the "pro-democracy" activists. There isn't really any analogous situation in the United States. Any attempt to make some sort of hypothetical analogy - involving Portland, for example - will sound forced, because the United States doesn't have the same history of foreign powers invading it and carving it up.
- madhadron 7y ago
  > the United States doesn't have the same history of foreign powers invading it and carving it up. True. The foreign powers in the Americas went for genocide and carving it up.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    That wasn't done to the United States. It was done to the native people before the United States was founded, and by the United States to the native people afterwards.
- fieryscribe 7y ago
  The Chinese central government is not happy to let Hong Kong run itself. That's why Article 23 was pushed numerous times, as well the National Anthem Bill and the extradition law. They put their customs officials on Hong Kong territory, to the dismay of many locals. They also conduct extra-judicial behavior such as kidnapping HK citizens. In 1997, HKers were afraid their freedoms would erode under Chinese rule. We were left alone for a while, but the spectre was always there. Now, the Central Government has made it more of a priority. That said, there are many HKers who consider HK part of China and many others who don't.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    The central government's red line is separatism. For most issues, they're not interested in intervening in Hong Kong's politics. I think most of the current tension is fundamentally over the issue of separatism.
    - fieryscribe 7y ago
      I've given you examples which have nothing to do with "separatism", such as extradition and kidnapping, and you choose to ignore it. In another instance, a journalist was refused a visa because he chaired a panel. That's about freedom of speech, which HKers have long enjoyed. I'm a Hong Konger and always will be. I'm aware of what the CCP is doing and they're not at all as hands-off as you make them seem. Xi Jin Ping especially does not tolerate differences.
      - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
        Article 23 and the National Anthem Bill were both directly related to the issue of separatism. If by customs officials you're referring to the high-speed rail station, then that's an overblown issue. The pressuring of the book sellers to go to China was indeed a very troubling incident. But the general, widespread control of Hong Kong politics by the central government that many people imagine is not there, and almost all of these issues are about the central government not allowing separatists to gain power in Hong Kong (e.g., the entire fight over who can run for the Chief Executive position). Something that is often ignored in these discussions is that under British rule, Hong Kongers has almost no say in their government, and that they now actually have much more say.
- rb808 7y ago
  > It's become more democratic since the handover Seriously? Says who? Your account is 2 days old and just has posted a bunch of geo-political Anti-Western stuff. You're probably on the wrong website.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    How familiar are you with Hong Kong? A lot of people who don't know anything about its history or politics are very surprised to hear that it wasn't a democracy under British rule. > Your account is 2 days old and just has posted a bunch of geo-political Anti-Western stuff. Poisoning the well much? If you're referring to my support for Assange, then I'll just say that I don't consider the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States to be "anti-Western."
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't bully other users who don't share your politics (or your geo). That's quite against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- nutcracker46 7y ago
  China really needs to overcome its own hangups about its sense of victimization by the British. Get the fuck over it. Lose that fascist notion of superiority over the world and learn to cooperate with it. The Chinese emperors of yesterday and the communist party of today prioritize state power over all else. It is a country that will always lag in the world because it is too busy choking itself to death.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    There's nothing "fascist" about opposition to colonialism. The attitude of most Chinese people isn't that they're the greatest in the world. Quite the opposite, they generally admire the developed world and want to emulate it in many ways. They don't generally want to be better than everyone else, but rather to be treated with respect. British control over Hong Kong was a reminder of a time when China was not treated with respect, in which it was forced to submit to humiliating treaties, in which foreign countries could force China to accept opium imports, in which Chinese territory was carved up, and in which Chinese people suffered under foreign invasions and occupation. It's easy to tell other countries to get over colonialism, but colonialism is a major issue in the modern history of China. That's why Hong Kong is a touchy issue, and why a lot of Chinese people will get pissed off if you tell them it's not part of China. It was taken from China in a war in which the British forced China to import opium. Just keep that in mind when you think about why Chinese people might react as they do.
    - zentiggr 7y ago
      But not a lot of British citizens get this violently or persistently up in arms about American independence, despite that war happening only a few years earlier. The remaining descendants of French aristocratic families aren't trying to claim their rights stolen in that revolution. There does come a point in time where past difficulties should be laid to rest.
      - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
        Are you comparing the what happened to the Chinese in the Opium Wars to what happened to the British in the American revolution?

Look Portland, if you join the United States you can continue running your city as a democracy, we won’t mess with you, we just want you to join our country. 20 years later: Just kidding! Haha!

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

Hong Kong wasn't a democracy under British rule. It's become more democratic since the handover - not less. A lot of Chinese people are touchy when you tell them that part of their country - a part that was taken away from China at the point of a gun in the 1800s - isn't part of China. They're proud that Hong Kong was returned to China, because it's a symbol of China overcoming colonialism, after all the damage and humiliation colonial powers inflicted on China. The Chinese central government is mostly happy to let Hong Kong run itself, as long as they don't try to secede from China, and secession is the primary goal of many of the "pro-democracy" activists. There isn't really any analogous situation in the United States. Any attempt to make some sort of hypothetical analogy - involving Portland, for example - will sound forced, because the United States doesn't have the same history of foreign powers invading it and carving it up.

madhadron 7y ago
> the United States doesn't have the same history of foreign powers invading it and carving it up. True. The foreign powers in the Americas went for genocide and carving it up.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  That wasn't done to the United States. It was done to the native people before the United States was founded, and by the United States to the native people afterwards.
fieryscribe 7y ago
The Chinese central government is not happy to let Hong Kong run itself. That's why Article 23 was pushed numerous times, as well the National Anthem Bill and the extradition law. They put their customs officials on Hong Kong territory, to the dismay of many locals. They also conduct extra-judicial behavior such as kidnapping HK citizens. In 1997, HKers were afraid their freedoms would erode under Chinese rule. We were left alone for a while, but the spectre was always there. Now, the Central Government has made it more of a priority. That said, there are many HKers who consider HK part of China and many others who don't.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  The central government's red line is separatism. For most issues, they're not interested in intervening in Hong Kong's politics. I think most of the current tension is fundamentally over the issue of separatism.
  - fieryscribe 7y ago
    I've given you examples which have nothing to do with "separatism", such as extradition and kidnapping, and you choose to ignore it. In another instance, a journalist was refused a visa because he chaired a panel. That's about freedom of speech, which HKers have long enjoyed. I'm a Hong Konger and always will be. I'm aware of what the CCP is doing and they're not at all as hands-off as you make them seem. Xi Jin Ping especially does not tolerate differences.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      Article 23 and the National Anthem Bill were both directly related to the issue of separatism. If by customs officials you're referring to the high-speed rail station, then that's an overblown issue. The pressuring of the book sellers to go to China was indeed a very troubling incident. But the general, widespread control of Hong Kong politics by the central government that many people imagine is not there, and almost all of these issues are about the central government not allowing separatists to gain power in Hong Kong (e.g., the entire fight over who can run for the Chief Executive position). Something that is often ignored in these discussions is that under British rule, Hong Kongers has almost no say in their government, and that they now actually have much more say.
rb808 7y ago
> It's become more democratic since the handover Seriously? Says who? Your account is 2 days old and just has posted a bunch of geo-political Anti-Western stuff. You're probably on the wrong website.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  How familiar are you with Hong Kong? A lot of people who don't know anything about its history or politics are very surprised to hear that it wasn't a democracy under British rule. > Your account is 2 days old and just has posted a bunch of geo-political Anti-Western stuff. Poisoning the well much? If you're referring to my support for Assange, then I'll just say that I don't consider the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States to be "anti-Western."
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't bully other users who don't share your politics (or your geo). That's quite against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
nutcracker46 7y ago
China really needs to overcome its own hangups about its sense of victimization by the British. Get the fuck over it. Lose that fascist notion of superiority over the world and learn to cooperate with it. The Chinese emperors of yesterday and the communist party of today prioritize state power over all else. It is a country that will always lag in the world because it is too busy choking itself to death.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  There's nothing "fascist" about opposition to colonialism. The attitude of most Chinese people isn't that they're the greatest in the world. Quite the opposite, they generally admire the developed world and want to emulate it in many ways. They don't generally want to be better than everyone else, but rather to be treated with respect. British control over Hong Kong was a reminder of a time when China was not treated with respect, in which it was forced to submit to humiliating treaties, in which foreign countries could force China to accept opium imports, in which Chinese territory was carved up, and in which Chinese people suffered under foreign invasions and occupation. It's easy to tell other countries to get over colonialism, but colonialism is a major issue in the modern history of China. That's why Hong Kong is a touchy issue, and why a lot of Chinese people will get pissed off if you tell them it's not part of China. It was taken from China in a war in which the British forced China to import opium. Just keep that in mind when you think about why Chinese people might react as they do.
  - zentiggr 7y ago
    But not a lot of British citizens get this violently or persistently up in arms about American independence, despite that war happening only a few years earlier. The remaining descendants of French aristocratic families aren't trying to claim their rights stolen in that revolution. There does come a point in time where past difficulties should be laid to rest.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      Are you comparing the what happened to the Chinese in the Opium Wars to what happened to the British in the American revolution?