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There is no alternative to nuclear, if you care about cutting CO2 emissions. Wind and solar is necessairly paired with natural gas (or coal) because they cannot

There is no alternative to nuclear, if you care about cutting CO2 emissions. Wind and solar is necessairly paired with natural gas (or coal) because they cannot power a modern economy by themselves (and there is no battery technology capable of operating at city-scale). So how else are you supposed to cut CO2 emissions?

tzs 7y ago
> and there is no battery technology capable of operating at city-scale Batteries aren't the only way to store energy. Isn't pumped hydraulic able to work at city scale?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- PeterisP 7y ago
  > Isn't pumped hydraulic able to work at city scale? Not really. Pumped hydro is able to work at the scale of a city, but not in the scale of many cities - effective pumped hydro requires very specific locations (a sizeable river with sufficient flow; a comparably high drop, and space for a large reservoirs not only above the dam but also below the dam) which are quite rare. The best spots for it are already used; you can't simply take a normal hydro power dam location and use it effectively for pumped hydro. We could double the current use of pumped hydro; we could triple it; heck, perhaps we might use ten times of current pumped hydro if we're ready to destroy lots of ecosystems by altering major rivers, but it's physically impossible to have enough pumped hydro to cover half of our grid.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Disused coal mines have a surprisingly high capacity for that. And hydro is not nearly the only storage method aside from batteries.
    - macspoofing 7y ago
      - pumped-hydro won't work because there are very few places that have the conditions to enable it. Hydro in general is great, but we've pretty much dammed every river that can be dammed. - batteries won't work because there is no technology today or incoming that can a) store enough to power a city for hours, days, or weeks and b) can even main storage across weeks or months (as would be needed since wind/solar varies seasonally and yearly) So what other storage methods are left?
  - cesarb 7y ago
    > effective pumped hydro requires very specific locations (a sizeable river with sufficient flow; a comparably high drop, and space for a large reservoirs not only above the dam but also below the dam) which are quite rare I also thought that pumped hydro needed all that to work, until I found a study about potential locations for pumped hydro in my home state. First of all, you don't actually need a river with that much flow; you only need enough flow to replace the water lost through evaporation, and for the initial fill of either the lower or the upper reservoir. Second, both reservoirs can be completely separate, the lower reservoir doesn't need to be directly below the dam of the upper reservoir. Both reservoirs are connected by a tunnel, with the generator/pump being at some point within this tunnel. So what you actually need is a pair of areas with suitable geology for a reservoir, one being higher than the other, close enough that the tunnel isn't too long (that study had tunnels of over 4 km, so they don't have to be very close), and a river near one of them. > The best spots for it are already used; you can't simply take a normal hydro power dam location and use it effectively for pumped hydro. The best spots for normal hydro would be the ones where the river is near the upper reservoir; pumped hydro allows using spots where the river is only near the lower reservoir. That's the insight I was missing before I found that study. You could even use an already existing hydro power dam as the lower reservoir for pumped hydro, as long as there's a suitable spot for the upper reservoir nearby.
perfunctory 7y ago
We are gonna have to change the "modern economy".
- macspoofing 7y ago
  Yes. Unfortunately, for you, it won't be easy to convince people to give up their high-end electronics, AC in the summer, and heating in the Winter, cheap vacation flights, etc. etc. It is amazing to see how far people will go to deny the only solution to climate change - namely nuclear power.

tzs 7y ago

> and there is no battery technology capable of operating at city-scale Batteries aren't the only way to store energy. Isn't pumped hydraulic able to work at city scale?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
PeterisP 7y ago
> Isn't pumped hydraulic able to work at city scale? Not really. Pumped hydro is able to work at the scale of a city, but not in the scale of many cities - effective pumped hydro requires very specific locations (a sizeable river with sufficient flow; a comparably high drop, and space for a large reservoirs not only above the dam but also below the dam) which are quite rare. The best spots for it are already used; you can't simply take a normal hydro power dam location and use it effectively for pumped hydro. We could double the current use of pumped hydro; we could triple it; heck, perhaps we might use ten times of current pumped hydro if we're ready to destroy lots of ecosystems by altering major rivers, but it's physically impossible to have enough pumped hydro to cover half of our grid.
- anoncake 7y ago
  Disused coal mines have a surprisingly high capacity for that. And hydro is not nearly the only storage method aside from batteries.
  - macspoofing 7y ago
    - pumped-hydro won't work because there are very few places that have the conditions to enable it. Hydro in general is great, but we've pretty much dammed every river that can be dammed. - batteries won't work because there is no technology today or incoming that can a) store enough to power a city for hours, days, or weeks and b) can even main storage across weeks or months (as would be needed since wind/solar varies seasonally and yearly) So what other storage methods are left?
- cesarb 7y ago
  > effective pumped hydro requires very specific locations (a sizeable river with sufficient flow; a comparably high drop, and space for a large reservoirs not only above the dam but also below the dam) which are quite rare I also thought that pumped hydro needed all that to work, until I found a study about potential locations for pumped hydro in my home state. First of all, you don't actually need a river with that much flow; you only need enough flow to replace the water lost through evaporation, and for the initial fill of either the lower or the upper reservoir. Second, both reservoirs can be completely separate, the lower reservoir doesn't need to be directly below the dam of the upper reservoir. Both reservoirs are connected by a tunnel, with the generator/pump being at some point within this tunnel. So what you actually need is a pair of areas with suitable geology for a reservoir, one being higher than the other, close enough that the tunnel isn't too long (that study had tunnels of over 4 km, so they don't have to be very close), and a river near one of them. > The best spots for it are already used; you can't simply take a normal hydro power dam location and use it effectively for pumped hydro. The best spots for normal hydro would be the ones where the river is near the upper reservoir; pumped hydro allows using spots where the river is only near the lower reservoir. That's the insight I was missing before I found that study. You could even use an already existing hydro power dam as the lower reservoir for pumped hydro, as long as there's a suitable spot for the upper reservoir nearby.

perfunctory 7y ago

We are gonna have to change the "modern economy".

macspoofing 7y ago
Yes. Unfortunately, for you, it won't be easy to convince people to give up their high-end electronics, AC in the summer, and heating in the Winter, cheap vacation flights, etc. etc. It is amazing to see how far people will go to deny the only solution to climate change - namely nuclear power.