7 ms·

> Never Split the Difference is amazing for negotiation. I have done thousands of negotiations (for vastly different things) and have been paid to do so. [1] I

by gist 7y ago

> Never Split the Difference is amazing for negotiation. I have done thousands of negotiations (for vastly different things) and have been paid to do so. [1] I have never read a single book on negotiations. I can always tell when someone else has. (Read that again). [2] I could most likely write a book myself on negotiations and my experiences. The problem is it's a seat of the pants thing. It's nearly impossible to be able to say what to do unless you are in the exact situation and reading all the signals. Also it's creative at it's core so if you are a narrow type thinker you are most likely not going to be good at it no matter what (very generally). And of course what you are negotiating for and in particular who you are dealing with and their motivations are super important to the process. That said I am sure a book can help with an adversary that is not particular difficult and of course better than nothing. But like with most other things it is in no way even close to a substitute for actual experience over time and the right base attributes personally. Some people just aren't perceptive enough of others emotions and reactions to be good at it. No way around it. Also their own emotions and the ability to control them. [1] The largest fee I made (recently) was close to $200k and I've been paid as little as $500 (or have done it for free in some cases). [2] Because their delivery and actions appear canned and predictably fit another pattern that I have seen in the exact same way over time.

AJ007 7y ago
I’m not against reading at all — but, I think the reader needs to be aware of what they are reading, and the biases or potential lack of credibility involved. One of the problems with human driven interactions and instructions is those sorts of guidelines can cause people to toss out their common sense. The very nature of some things mean step by step instructions, if followed by enough people, cease to work. This is especially true in marketplaces.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  Yes. A strategy that works because it sets you apart is pretty much by definition not one that can adopted successfully en masse.
rargulati 7y ago
For the inexperienced, what are a few key principles that we can take away from your experiences?
- gist 7y ago
  Well in brief 'stop reading and start doing'. Now think about all the ways you can 'practice' at negotiation. You can start by trying to buy things that you don't even want to buy. Go in and play games with a car dealer when you don't need a car. As impractical as it sounds try to negotiate for a job that you don't want. Do it over and over and over again. Don't want to put in that effort? Well it's like anything else you have to. You would expect to be good at tennis or playing piano without practice. Now you have to enjoy doing this. Most people don't. I guess because they don't have good results or positive feedback. And learn to read people's facial emotions and also how they reply to emails or how their voice sounds over the phone. That is a large part of the game. Reading people whatever way you can. Also importantly recognize the situations where the game is not one you will win because your adversary is a gambler and will not fall for the typical games or doesn't care if they lose.
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    No, don't go in and negotiate with sales people when you have no intention of buying anything. They are people, trying to make a living, and by wasting their time you are literally costing them money. It's a selfish move, and if there wasn't a stigma attached to car salesmen you probably would realize that. I doubt you would suggest people similarly hone their negotiating skills by stringing along a series of freelancers on Upwork with phantom projects that don't exist.
    - gist 7y ago
      Oh stop already. There are plenty of situations where people knowingly waste others time. What happens when you walk into a retail shop with ZERO intention of buying something? (And in some cases you actually do?). What happens if you waste the salesman time and then later refer that salesman to someone else who buys a car? Stop making as if you (or anyone) is so pure and honest and always does the right thing. (Or is even aware of all of the circumstances and why something is done). That said the question is do you want to get good at negotiation not 'are you a saint who thinks they would never waste someone's time' (which I dispute per my other thoughts in this comment to begin with). Guess what? I get a ton of tire kickers for my services that are referred to me. In some cases I know right off the bat that these people can't afford what I do and are 'wasting my time'. I still handle them with courtesy and take my time (knowing that I am wasting it) to help them. In some cases I enjoy doing so and in other cases I know they will then refer others to me. Many times these are people that have been referred to me (actually most times). I don't discourage it either. I know overall it's a good thing not a bad thing. Auto dealers spend a ton of time to get people into the showroom. Advertising to sell cars. But did it ever occur to you that just like a restaurant [1] that is busy they might actually want the foot traffic because it makes things look popular and encourages others to buy (who are there)? Ever occur to you that it's good training for the sales person (who runs deals by the sales manager)? [1] Restaurants will often trade at less than menu rates to have the restaurant be busy (even lose on diners) so that others (that are paying full price) will feel better about eating in a non empty place.
chucksmash 7y ago
> I have never read a single book on negotiations. I can always tell when someone else has. My dad used to talk about negotiations from later in his career and I think he would have more or less agreed with the sentiment. I remember him talking about being tickled when someone would come in taking a particular tack, and you could more or less tell them "yeah, sure book x chapter y, how about we just talk?" and then everybody had a chuckle and got down to business. I'm sure it was more of a vibe he picked up than any particular incident. The idea reminds me of the Gervais Principle's[1] idea that different subgroups within an organization speak different languages to each other. In support of reading books, I think there's a difference between being familiar with what everybody else has probably read vs working directly out of a playbook. Edit: The first link is the start of the blog series. The one about languages groups speak is [2]. [1]: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... [2]: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-ii-posturetalk-powertalk-babytalk-and-gametalk/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-...
- gist 7y ago
  > and you could more or less tell them "yeah, sure book x chapter y, how about we just talk?" and then everybody had a chuckle and got down to business Well my particular tack is never never never tell someone you know what their game is let them play their game. And never back them into a corner. People (I have found) go against their own interests if only for pride reasons. (I am sure that is in some book somewhere buried ..)
- mstaoru 7y ago
  It would be hard for him to "have never read a single book on negotiations" and still be able to tell them "yeah, sure book x chapter y, how about we just talk?"
pm90 7y ago
> if you are a narrow type thinker This is a completely personal opinion but I think this is key. Most people _are_ narrow type thinkers. They have certain perspectives of the world that they're convinced about and unwilling to see things differently. If you're the kind of person who genuinely listens and tries to understand the situation of the other party, ironically, its much easier to get what you want. Most people seem to desire intensely a feeling of being understood, if your actions demonstrate to them that you do, they're willing to meet you halfway. ^ Also something that's probably in a book somewhere. The problem with book-based learning at its core is that if you're trying to do the "techniques" in the book, you're already not listening as much as you should be and missing out on a whole lot of cues which might be very very useful.
- koonsolo 7y ago
  This is exactly what "Never Split the Difference" is advocating.
tmaly 7y ago
I can say from experience, just reading this book is not enough. You actually have to practice. I went into a car dealership trying to negotiate. I was somewhat successful, but not as much as I thought I could be.

by gist 7y ago

AJ007 7y ago

I’m not against reading at all — but, I think the reader needs to be aware of what they are reading, and the biases or potential lack of credibility involved. One of the problems with human driven interactions and instructions is those sorts of guidelines can cause people to toss out their common sense. The very nature of some things mean step by step instructions, if followed by enough people, cease to work. This is especially true in marketplaces.

ineedasername 7y ago
Yes. A strategy that works because it sets you apart is pretty much by definition not one that can adopted successfully en masse.

rargulati 7y ago

For the inexperienced, what are a few key principles that we can take away from your experiences?

gist 7y ago
Well in brief 'stop reading and start doing'. Now think about all the ways you can 'practice' at negotiation. You can start by trying to buy things that you don't even want to buy. Go in and play games with a car dealer when you don't need a car. As impractical as it sounds try to negotiate for a job that you don't want. Do it over and over and over again. Don't want to put in that effort? Well it's like anything else you have to. You would expect to be good at tennis or playing piano without practice. Now you have to enjoy doing this. Most people don't. I guess because they don't have good results or positive feedback. And learn to read people's facial emotions and also how they reply to emails or how their voice sounds over the phone. That is a large part of the game. Reading people whatever way you can. Also importantly recognize the situations where the game is not one you will win because your adversary is a gambler and will not fall for the typical games or doesn't care if they lose.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  No, don't go in and negotiate with sales people when you have no intention of buying anything. They are people, trying to make a living, and by wasting their time you are literally costing them money. It's a selfish move, and if there wasn't a stigma attached to car salesmen you probably would realize that. I doubt you would suggest people similarly hone their negotiating skills by stringing along a series of freelancers on Upwork with phantom projects that don't exist.
  - gist 7y ago
    Oh stop already. There are plenty of situations where people knowingly waste others time. What happens when you walk into a retail shop with ZERO intention of buying something? (And in some cases you actually do?). What happens if you waste the salesman time and then later refer that salesman to someone else who buys a car? Stop making as if you (or anyone) is so pure and honest and always does the right thing. (Or is even aware of all of the circumstances and why something is done). That said the question is do you want to get good at negotiation not 'are you a saint who thinks they would never waste someone's time' (which I dispute per my other thoughts in this comment to begin with). Guess what? I get a ton of tire kickers for my services that are referred to me. In some cases I know right off the bat that these people can't afford what I do and are 'wasting my time'. I still handle them with courtesy and take my time (knowing that I am wasting it) to help them. In some cases I enjoy doing so and in other cases I know they will then refer others to me. Many times these are people that have been referred to me (actually most times). I don't discourage it either. I know overall it's a good thing not a bad thing. Auto dealers spend a ton of time to get people into the showroom. Advertising to sell cars. But did it ever occur to you that just like a restaurant [1] that is busy they might actually want the foot traffic because it makes things look popular and encourages others to buy (who are there)? Ever occur to you that it's good training for the sales person (who runs deals by the sales manager)? [1] Restaurants will often trade at less than menu rates to have the restaurant be busy (even lose on diners) so that others (that are paying full price) will feel better about eating in a non empty place.

chucksmash 7y ago

> I have never read a single book on negotiations. I can always tell when someone else has. My dad used to talk about negotiations from later in his career and I think he would have more or less agreed with the sentiment. I remember him talking about being tickled when someone would come in taking a particular tack, and you could more or less tell them "yeah, sure book x chapter y, how about we just talk?" and then everybody had a chuckle and got down to business. I'm sure it was more of a vibe he picked up than any particular incident. The idea reminds me of the Gervais Principle's[1] idea that different subgroups within an organization speak different languages to each other. In support of reading books, I think there's a difference between being familiar with what everybody else has probably read vs working directly out of a playbook. Edit: The first link is the start of the blog series. The one about languages groups speak is [2]. [1]: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-the-office-according-to-the-office/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-... [2]: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-ii-posturetalk-powertalk-babytalk-and-gametalk/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-...

gist 7y ago
> and you could more or less tell them "yeah, sure book x chapter y, how about we just talk?" and then everybody had a chuckle and got down to business Well my particular tack is never never never tell someone you know what their game is let them play their game. And never back them into a corner. People (I have found) go against their own interests if only for pride reasons. (I am sure that is in some book somewhere buried ..)
mstaoru 7y ago
It would be hard for him to "have never read a single book on negotiations" and still be able to tell them "yeah, sure book x chapter y, how about we just talk?"

pm90 7y ago

> if you are a narrow type thinker This is a completely personal opinion but I think this is key. Most people _are_ narrow type thinkers. They have certain perspectives of the world that they're convinced about and unwilling to see things differently. If you're the kind of person who genuinely listens and tries to understand the situation of the other party, ironically, its much easier to get what you want. Most people seem to desire intensely a feeling of being understood, if your actions demonstrate to them that you do, they're willing to meet you halfway. ^ Also something that's probably in a book somewhere. The problem with book-based learning at its core is that if you're trying to do the "techniques" in the book, you're already not listening as much as you should be and missing out on a whole lot of cues which might be very very useful.

koonsolo 7y ago
This is exactly what "Never Split the Difference" is advocating.

tmaly 7y ago

I can say from experience, just reading this book is not enough. You actually have to practice. I went into a car dealership trying to negotiate. I was somewhat successful, but not as much as I thought I could be.