4 ms·

The only egocentrism I see is all in the pompous article requesting that users do not make perfectly reasonable choices on their own computers. Then attempts to

The only egocentrism I see is all in the pompous article requesting that users do not make perfectly reasonable choices on their own computers. Then attempts to justify on some absurdly contrived grounds. Neither reasonable nor sensible. Imagine if Apple asked users not to apply stickers to their laptop as it denies Apple the possibility to control their brand, or could make the laptop look broken, even unusable - shock I may even apply a sticker that shows a broken circuit board or simulates cracked aluminium. Apple's view is that applying a sticker to the case or keyboard render Appley documentation useless as they don't look like the pictures we screenshotted in moments. > Even the slightest change in color can introduce friction between UI elements Yeah, and? They might be the difference between unusable discomfort and usable, or allow ageing eyes to cope with arrogant and restricted developer choices, or missing sense of aesthetic. You might not like the colour car I buy or the decorating scheme I choose for my house. Mind your own damn business. > On the topic of branding Yeah, about that. It's branding that has led computer and phone makers to give highly limited theming capability. Firefox or my desktop is no longer my own to adjust and fiddle to unusability (sic) or perfection - as I see fit. Like the paint I use inside my house, mind your own damn business. I might LIKE my phone, Windows box and Linux box to all look highly distinct from each other for my own personal reasons. Mind your own damn business. It is not another surface on which to stimulate my neurons to be further programmed by the brand. Baa. Edit: Specifically on icons, I have been changing icons since the days of Workbench 1.3 in about 1986 or 87. I won't stop now. I've chosen wildly different icons for some apps at times - because they worked better for me. Icons as space for a logo is an entirely negative fashion to my mind as I prefer a hint, however vague, of what that a rarely used app does.

detaro 7y ago
It EXPLICITLY says that it does not talk about users changing things on their machines, but wants it to be something the user sets instead of a distro applying by default.
- anoncake 7y ago
  Choosing a Linux distro with a specific theme rather than one using Adwaita or sticking with the pre-installed Windows is the user changing things on their machine.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  I may choose a distro that specifically looks a certain way - like the one that tries to look just like MacOS. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do. Just as it's perfectly reasonable to regret consistency on a platform that doesn't have distros - as you may want to vary. "However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory." Unsupported territory, for changing a desktop icon, or adding a higher or lower contrast stylesheet? Wow. That's pompous and absurd for me. Doesn't sound like it's explicitly made a reasonable exception though, just piles on a layer of entitlement for a damn brand.
  - darsnack 7y ago
    If a distro is committed to modifying the style sheets to look like macOS, then it should be the distro’s responsibility to maintain the applications. Precisely because the distro market for Linux is so varied, it is hard for Gnome app developers to support all possible theme configurations. Read the banner at the top of the page again. It doesn’t ask users to stop customizing, and it doesn’t say there shouldn’t be distros with custom theming. It just asks distros to stop shipping broken apps as a result of theming, and it asserts that if that’s the route you want to go, then you are on your own.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      > it doesn’t say there shouldn’t be distros with custom theming. Reading carefully between the lines, I think they actually do hint at that: > Please don’t theme our apps > This is why we ask respectfully that our applications not be themed. > On a platform level, we believe GTK should stop forcing a single stylesheet on all apps by default. > If you are a distribution who changes the system stylesheet and icons, please reconsider this decision. > If you do, we ask that you please stop theming our apps.
jsty 7y ago
I'm not sure they're saying that end-users shouldn't make those decisions, simply warning that customised versions of their software won't be supported by upstream to the same degree, and thus distributers should leave the styling as-is. On the first point, to quote the article: "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory. Any issues you encounter should be reported to the theme developer, not the app developer."
- mises 7y ago
  I think that's the point they're trying to make - there is a certain amount of caveat emptor associated with theming. But they don't make it well when they say "don't them our apps".
rangerpolitic 7y ago
They're not addressing this to end users. There is a notice at the top of the article in a bright yellow box. > Please read the letter all the way to the end. This is aimed at distributions breaking apps by default, not tinkerers playing with their own setup.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  > Please read the letter all the way to the end I did thanks. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us ... However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory." Unsupported territory for choosing a distro that looks unusual, or applies theming, or for changing my own damn desktop icon?
  - rangerpolitic 7y ago
    It's unreasonable to expect a developer to support third-party modifications to the software--especially when that software and support are free.
    - anoncake 7y ago
      Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. It's reasonable to expect a developer to support software being used in an environment that does not 100% match what they use (to the extent it's reasonable to expect support in the first place).
      - rangerpolitic 7y ago
        > Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. Changing the UI changes the software from the user perspective.
        anoncake 7y ago
        That's why they're users and not developers.
barrkel 7y ago
The article isn't complaining about users changing things; it's complaining about the desktop unilaterally applying a style on all apps without testing.
finchisko 7y ago
I see your point. But beware that if you make app developers go mad, they can stop using gnome and use some fw that doesn't allow theming (there is only certain level you can piss off the people :).

detaro 7y ago

It EXPLICITLY says that it does not talk about users changing things on their machines, but wants it to be something the user sets instead of a distro applying by default.

anoncake 7y ago
Choosing a Linux distro with a specific theme rather than one using Adwaita or sticking with the pre-installed Windows is the user changing things on their machine.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
I may choose a distro that specifically looks a certain way - like the one that tries to look just like MacOS. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to want to do. Just as it's perfectly reasonable to regret consistency on a platform that doesn't have distros - as you may want to vary. "However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory." Unsupported territory, for changing a desktop icon, or adding a higher or lower contrast stylesheet? Wow. That's pompous and absurd for me. Doesn't sound like it's explicitly made a reasonable exception though, just piles on a layer of entitlement for a damn brand.
- darsnack 7y ago
  If a distro is committed to modifying the style sheets to look like macOS, then it should be the distro’s responsibility to maintain the applications. Precisely because the distro market for Linux is so varied, it is hard for Gnome app developers to support all possible theme configurations. Read the banner at the top of the page again. It doesn’t ask users to stop customizing, and it doesn’t say there shouldn’t be distros with custom theming. It just asks distros to stop shipping broken apps as a result of theming, and it asserts that if that’s the route you want to go, then you are on your own.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    > it doesn’t say there shouldn’t be distros with custom theming. Reading carefully between the lines, I think they actually do hint at that: > Please don’t theme our apps > This is why we ask respectfully that our applications not be themed. > On a platform level, we believe GTK should stop forcing a single stylesheet on all apps by default. > If you are a distribution who changes the system stylesheet and icons, please reconsider this decision. > If you do, we ask that you please stop theming our apps.

jsty 7y ago

I'm not sure they're saying that end-users shouldn't make those decisions, simply warning that customised versions of their software won't be supported by upstream to the same degree, and thus distributers should leave the styling as-is. On the first point, to quote the article: "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory. Any issues you encounter should be reported to the theme developer, not the app developer."

mises 7y ago
I think that's the point they're trying to make - there is a certain amount of caveat emptor associated with theming. But they don't make it well when they say "don't them our apps".

rangerpolitic 7y ago

They're not addressing this to end users. There is a notice at the top of the article in a bright yellow box. > Please read the letter all the way to the end. This is aimed at distributions breaking apps by default, not tinkerers playing with their own setup.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
> Please read the letter all the way to the end I did thanks. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us ... However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory." Unsupported territory for choosing a distro that looks unusual, or applies theming, or for changing my own damn desktop icon?
- rangerpolitic 7y ago
  It's unreasonable to expect a developer to support third-party modifications to the software--especially when that software and support are free.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. It's reasonable to expect a developer to support software being used in an environment that does not 100% match what they use (to the extent it's reasonable to expect support in the first place).
    - rangerpolitic 7y ago
      > Good thing theming doesn't modify the software. Changing the UI changes the software from the user perspective.
      - anoncake 7y ago
        That's why they're users and not developers.

barrkel 7y ago

The article isn't complaining about users changing things; it's complaining about the desktop unilaterally applying a style on all apps without testing.

finchisko 7y ago

I see your point. But beware that if you make app developers go mad, they can stop using gnome and use some fw that doesn't allow theming (there is only certain level you can piss off the people :).