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The parent correctly notes that theming is a valid feature of the platform, and asking essentially for ignoring the feature because of brand issues sounds ridic

The parent correctly notes that theming is a valid feature of the platform, and asking essentially for ignoring the feature because of brand issues sounds ridiculous. It maybe 'unhelpful', but sometimes we just express our opinions here, not running consultancy services. It's called commentary section for a reason.

avianlyric 7y ago
I don’t take issue with people expressing opinions, or even pointing out that theming is a platform feature. But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers.
- loudtieblahblah 7y ago
  Just bc you wrote something doesn't give you the right to dictate how I use it on my personal machine.
  - sp332 7y ago
    Again, this letter is not aimed at end users. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us."
    - suby 7y ago
      This would absolutely impact end users when they can no longer find custom themes through their distro of choice. It is unreasonable to expect each end user to build their own custom themes, it makes far more sense for distros to do the work once.
    - onli 7y ago
      That paragraph continues. The letter is absolutely also aimed at end users: > If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory. Any issues you encounter should be reported to the theme developer, not the app developer. Just not with the same vehemence as its message directed at distros.
      - icegreentea2 7y ago
        But I mean it's also technically correct. How could an application developer make any kind of guarantee in the face of arbitrary theming and tinkering by the end user?
        loudtieblahblah 7y ago
        Who ever asked a Foss developer to be responsible for gui/usability issues due to their theming? This all seems like a huge issue made about nothing on consequence
      - sjwright 7y ago
        Read that quote extract again—"If you like to tinker with your own system"—that is clearly saying to the distro developer to understand the distinction between your personal preferences and what you might distribute to others. If the letter was aimed at end users, that qualifier would have been redundant. Therefore the letter is not aimed at end users.
- suby 7y ago
  It is not a reasonable request, though. End users want the ability to theme their system, and you cannot expect each end user to make their own themes. People rely on distributions for this to happen. I understand that the devs do not want to be responsible for bugs stemming from broken themes, but this is the wrong solution. Ultimately the solution is a better theme API, not this which would essentially stop custom themes all together for most end users. In other comments people argue that this isn't aimed at end users, but end users would of course also be impacted from this.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    It doesn't matter if the end users want the ability to theme their system—if the software they run is not designed to be themed, then it's not designed to be themed.
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      It doesn't matter if the software is designed to be themed. If I want it to be themed, I'll theme it anyway, and if I can't, it means the software and the platform it's running on is garbage, and I'll go find a different one.
      - sjwright 7y ago
        Nobody is saying that you must not apply your favourite theme to whatever apps you like on your own computer. Not me, not the linked article. If themes are so important to you, pick your app based on that criteria. If you think an app is garbage because it doesn’t theme well, fork it and write a better version yourself.
        TeMPOraL 7y ago
        The main point of confusion in this whole thread is whether or not the article states you shouldn't apply themes on your own computer. To some, myself included, it kind of does. Linux distributions are not individual operating systems - they're essentially skins on top of Linux kernel, created bottom-up to offer opinionated choices to users. Picking a distribution is like modifying software on one's own computer, except without duplicating the same work other people would do. In this sense, the article does ask users to not customize software on their own machines.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers. How is releasing software under a license and asking people not do things allowed by that license reasonable?
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Asking someone (not) to do something without forcing them does not strike me as unreasonable per se.
grandinj 7y ago
Themeing is not a valid or supported feature. It's a hack that uses some facilities in GTK that were not intended for that purpose.
- anoncake 7y ago
  That was the case in the early days of GTK3, but I don't think it is anymore. If GTK3 still does not support theming, that explains why theming causes issues. In which case it would be better to implement proper theming support because stopping distributions from theming clearly doesn't work.
  - grandinj 7y ago
    A "proper" themeing API is a massive undertaking and would still have issues at scale
- frenchy 7y ago
  Really? Do you have a source for that? Theming GTK has been a not uncommon thing since as long as I've been using it (~15 years).
  - grandinj 7y ago
    https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-at-scale/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-a... Oh yes, people have always done it, via one hack or another, and as long as it was more of a "for people who really want to fiddle" it wasn't that much of an issue. But now expectations have risen, people expect more solid behaviour and look/feel from their apps, and distros routinely have quite different GTK themes.
    - frenchy 7y ago
      Ah, I guess this is sort of a change between GTK 2 & 3.

avianlyric 7y ago

I don’t take issue with people expressing opinions, or even pointing out that theming is a platform feature. But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers.

loudtieblahblah 7y ago
Just bc you wrote something doesn't give you the right to dictate how I use it on my personal machine.
- sp332 7y ago
  Again, this letter is not aimed at end users. "If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us."
  - suby 7y ago
    This would absolutely impact end users when they can no longer find custom themes through their distro of choice. It is unreasonable to expect each end user to build their own custom themes, it makes far more sense for distros to do the work once.
  - onli 7y ago
    That paragraph continues. The letter is absolutely also aimed at end users: > If you like to tinker with your own system, that’s fine with us. However, if you change things like stylesheets and icons, you should be aware that you’re in unsupported territory. Any issues you encounter should be reported to the theme developer, not the app developer. Just not with the same vehemence as its message directed at distros.
    - icegreentea2 7y ago
      But I mean it's also technically correct. How could an application developer make any kind of guarantee in the face of arbitrary theming and tinkering by the end user?
      - loudtieblahblah 7y ago
        Who ever asked a Foss developer to be responsible for gui/usability issues due to their theming? This all seems like a huge issue made about nothing on consequence
    - sjwright 7y ago
      Read that quote extract again—"If you like to tinker with your own system"—that is clearly saying to the distro developer to understand the distinction between your personal preferences and what you might distribute to others. If the letter was aimed at end users, that qualifier would have been redundant. Therefore the letter is not aimed at end users.
suby 7y ago
It is not a reasonable request, though. End users want the ability to theme their system, and you cannot expect each end user to make their own themes. People rely on distributions for this to happen. I understand that the devs do not want to be responsible for bugs stemming from broken themes, but this is the wrong solution. Ultimately the solution is a better theme API, not this which would essentially stop custom themes all together for most end users. In other comments people argue that this isn't aimed at end users, but end users would of course also be impacted from this.
- sjwright 7y ago
  It doesn't matter if the end users want the ability to theme their system—if the software they run is not designed to be themed, then it's not designed to be themed.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    It doesn't matter if the software is designed to be themed. If I want it to be themed, I'll theme it anyway, and if I can't, it means the software and the platform it's running on is garbage, and I'll go find a different one.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      Nobody is saying that you must not apply your favourite theme to whatever apps you like on your own computer. Not me, not the linked article. If themes are so important to you, pick your app based on that criteria. If you think an app is garbage because it doesn’t theme well, fork it and write a better version yourself.
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        The main point of confusion in this whole thread is whether or not the article states you shouldn't apply themes on your own computer. To some, myself included, it kind of does. Linux distributions are not individual operating systems - they're essentially skins on top of Linux kernel, created bottom-up to offer opinionated choices to users. Picking a distribution is like modifying software on one's own computer, except without duplicating the same work other people would do. In this sense, the article does ask users to not customize software on their own machines.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> But I do take issue with attacking developers who write applications for free, and contribute to the Linux ecosystem, for making a reasonable request to platform developers. How is releasing software under a license and asking people not do things allowed by that license reasonable?
- anoncake 7y ago
  Asking someone (not) to do something without forcing them does not strike me as unreasonable per se.

grandinj 7y ago

Themeing is not a valid or supported feature. It's a hack that uses some facilities in GTK that were not intended for that purpose.

anoncake 7y ago
That was the case in the early days of GTK3, but I don't think it is anymore. If GTK3 still does not support theming, that explains why theming causes issues. In which case it would be better to implement proper theming support because stopping distributions from theming clearly doesn't work.
- grandinj 7y ago
  A "proper" themeing API is a massive undertaking and would still have issues at scale
frenchy 7y ago
Really? Do you have a source for that? Theming GTK has been a not uncommon thing since as long as I've been using it (~15 years).
- grandinj 7y ago
  https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-at-scale/ https://blogs.gnome.org/tbernard/2018/10/15/restyling-apps-a... Oh yes, people have always done it, via one hack or another, and as long as it was more of a "for people who really want to fiddle" it wasn't that much of an issue. But now expectations have risen, people expect more solid behaviour and look/feel from their apps, and distros routinely have quite different GTK themes.
  - frenchy 7y ago
    Ah, I guess this is sort of a change between GTK 2 & 3.