3 ms·

I think this is routine statistics.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. Where are you going to get the comparable data? How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? There are tons of Chinese factories, and others all over the world with considerably worse conditions wherein nobody is committing suicide. People living in ghettos don't even commit suicide at alarming rates. 'Suicide' is actually a contagious behaviour, when a child in a school commits suicide, often there are others. This we have some data for. Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. While I think there's no doubt difficult work conditions are surely going to help to create 'conditions' for negative outcomes, I think 'causation' is going to be impossible to prove directly. The other thing here is that people make choices in life, it's another stretch of responsibility for someone to assert that the company made or induced them into making these choices. If Orange was skimping on safety gear, and we saw a spike in related accidents - then I think this is the 'statistical case' and we can show causation and direct responsibility. But suicide, although tragic, is a different scenario altogether.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  >I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. >Where are you going to get the comparable data? >How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? Is called epidemiology >Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. Do you know many farmers?
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    I come from a community of farmers in rural Ontario, and I don't know of, or have even heard of a single suicide.
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      Suicide takes more lives than war and violent crime combined and farmers regularly top the bill for the highest suicide rate of any profession, so you are uncommonly lucky. edit - Apologies, the raised suicide rate reported for farmers in North America looks as though it may not be true in Canada - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200
    - EdwardDiego 7y ago
      Lots of farmer suicides in NZ. Maybe Ontario has better support for farmers/rural populations. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-suicides-highlight-vulnerability-as-official-figures-rise-for-past-year https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-sui...
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      That fact itself may be the most crucial. As far as I can tell, awareness of other people (especially people you would consider to be in a similar situation to yourself) committing suicide is widely considered a causal factor. Even this fairly level headed conversation, and the legal case, are likely to somewhat contribute to suicidal ideation through mere awareness. Having spent some time in rural Ontario, I can say it imbues one with a sense that life is worth living. ;- )

I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. Where are you going to get the comparable data? How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? There are tons of Chinese factories, and others all over the world with considerably worse conditions wherein nobody is committing suicide. People living in ghettos don't even commit suicide at alarming rates. 'Suicide' is actually a contagious behaviour, when a child in a school commits suicide, often there are others. This we have some data for. Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. While I think there's no doubt difficult work conditions are surely going to help to create 'conditions' for negative outcomes, I think 'causation' is going to be impossible to prove directly. The other thing here is that people make choices in life, it's another stretch of responsibility for someone to assert that the company made or induced them into making these choices. If Orange was skimping on safety gear, and we saw a spike in related accidents - then I think this is the 'statistical case' and we can show causation and direct responsibility. But suicide, although tragic, is a different scenario altogether.

inflatableDodo 7y ago
>I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. >Where are you going to get the comparable data? >How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? Is called epidemiology >Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. Do you know many farmers?
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  I come from a community of farmers in rural Ontario, and I don't know of, or have even heard of a single suicide.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    Suicide takes more lives than war and violent crime combined and farmers regularly top the bill for the highest suicide rate of any profession, so you are uncommonly lucky. edit - Apologies, the raised suicide rate reported for farmers in North America looks as though it may not be true in Canada - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200
  - EdwardDiego 7y ago
    Lots of farmer suicides in NZ. Maybe Ontario has better support for farmers/rural populations. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-suicides-highlight-vulnerability-as-official-figures-rise-for-past-year https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-sui...
  - microcolonel 7y ago
    That fact itself may be the most crucial. As far as I can tell, awareness of other people (especially people you would consider to be in a similar situation to yourself) committing suicide is widely considered a causal factor. Even this fairly level headed conversation, and the legal case, are likely to somewhat contribute to suicidal ideation through mere awareness. Having spent some time in rural Ontario, I can say it imbues one with a sense that life is worth living. ;- )