5 ms·

"The suicides are the most spectacular side-effect of this harassement policy" The burden of proof required here is extreme.

davidgrenier 7y ago
I think this is routine statistics.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. Where are you going to get the comparable data? How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? There are tons of Chinese factories, and others all over the world with considerably worse conditions wherein nobody is committing suicide. People living in ghettos don't even commit suicide at alarming rates. 'Suicide' is actually a contagious behaviour, when a child in a school commits suicide, often there are others. This we have some data for. Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. While I think there's no doubt difficult work conditions are surely going to help to create 'conditions' for negative outcomes, I think 'causation' is going to be impossible to prove directly. The other thing here is that people make choices in life, it's another stretch of responsibility for someone to assert that the company made or induced them into making these choices. If Orange was skimping on safety gear, and we saw a spike in related accidents - then I think this is the 'statistical case' and we can show causation and direct responsibility. But suicide, although tragic, is a different scenario altogether.
  - inflatableDodo 7y ago
    >I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. >Where are you going to get the comparable data? >How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? Is called epidemiology >Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. Do you know many farmers?
    - sonnyblarney 7y ago
      I come from a community of farmers in rural Ontario, and I don't know of, or have even heard of a single suicide.
      - inflatableDodo 7y ago
        Suicide takes more lives than war and violent crime combined and farmers regularly top the bill for the highest suicide rate of any profession, so you are uncommonly lucky. edit - Apologies, the raised suicide rate reported for farmers in North America looks as though it may not be true in Canada - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200
      - EdwardDiego 7y ago
        Lots of farmer suicides in NZ. Maybe Ontario has better support for farmers/rural populations. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-suicides-highlight-vulnerability-as-official-figures-rise-for-past-year https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-sui...
      - microcolonel 7y ago
        That fact itself may be the most crucial. As far as I can tell, awareness of other people (especially people you would consider to be in a similar situation to yourself) committing suicide is widely considered a causal factor. Even this fairly level headed conversation, and the legal case, are likely to somewhat contribute to suicidal ideation through mere awareness. Having spent some time in rural Ontario, I can say it imbues one with a sense that life is worth living. ;- )
roenxi 7y ago
If corporate policy is so bad it provokes a wave of suicides then there will be a lot of evidence available. That level of pressure is not subtle.
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  It's plain wrong to claim that some angry manager 'caused' someone to kill themselves. Also, it's questionable if there was in fact a 'rash of suicides': France has a rate of suicide of 12.9 / 100K / year. [1] France Telecom has 95 000 employees In France alone. [2] Here's the title of the Telegraph article: "Why have 24 France Telecom workers killed themselves in the past 19 months?" [3] Well, it would be expected that about 20.5 FT employees will commit suicide every 19 months or so, sadly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A. [3] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/6259384/Why-have-24-France-Telecom-workers-killed-themselves-in-the-past-19-months.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechno...
  - wazoox 7y ago
    That's a common explanation, however it's necessary to refine the statistics, because FT employees may not match the general population.
    - mcguire 7y ago
      Would be fairly easy: compare suicides in FT across years, and with another telecom company going through similar changes.
  - roenxi 7y ago
    As another commenter has mentioned; it is unlikely a sample of FTEs is going to reflect the general population for suicides so that isn't a very powerful argument. But that isn't what jumps out at me - to me the real issue is that if management pressure is so bad it is provoking suicides then there will be lots of evidence for it. Presumably the reason people are talking about it in newspaper articles is because they have seen evidence and are asking questions. The stats you have quoted suggest the number of suicides is already above average. That, combined with evidence of a problem, is very likely what has triggered the conversation at all. I've seen some angry workers, but generally all they want is more pay or to work with better conditions going forward. I'm not sure how many of them would bother trying to get managers imprisoned without good cause. I'd guess it would be about as rare as management policies being bad enough to cause suicides. The media might have wiped out a whole heap of nuance - so it isn't worth getting worked up over the case - but if lawsuits are flying then it is more likely than not that something went very visibly wrong.
Darkstryder 7y ago
As I said, the trial is not about these suicides, but about a company-wide harassement policy. I meant it as "alleged side-effect".

davidgrenier 7y ago

I think this is routine statistics.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. Where are you going to get the comparable data? How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? There are tons of Chinese factories, and others all over the world with considerably worse conditions wherein nobody is committing suicide. People living in ghettos don't even commit suicide at alarming rates. 'Suicide' is actually a contagious behaviour, when a child in a school commits suicide, often there are others. This we have some data for. Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. While I think there's no doubt difficult work conditions are surely going to help to create 'conditions' for negative outcomes, I think 'causation' is going to be impossible to prove directly. The other thing here is that people make choices in life, it's another stretch of responsibility for someone to assert that the company made or induced them into making these choices. If Orange was skimping on safety gear, and we saw a spike in related accidents - then I think this is the 'statistical case' and we can show causation and direct responsibility. But suicide, although tragic, is a different scenario altogether.
- inflatableDodo 7y ago
  >I don't even think it will be close to 'routine'. >Where are you going to get the comparable data? >How on earth does one show 'causation' for any of this? Is called epidemiology >Layoffs and crappy work conditions are basically normative in a lot of the world, and not uncommon in the Western world, but I don't recall any cases of this kind of thing happening. Do you know many farmers?
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    I come from a community of farmers in rural Ontario, and I don't know of, or have even heard of a single suicide.
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      Suicide takes more lives than war and violent crime combined and farmers regularly top the bill for the highest suicide rate of any profession, so you are uncommonly lucky. edit - Apologies, the raised suicide rate reported for farmers in North America looks as though it may not be true in Canada - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10557200
    - EdwardDiego 7y ago
      Lots of farmer suicides in NZ. Maybe Ontario has better support for farmers/rural populations. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-suicides-highlight-vulnerability-as-official-figures-rise-for-past-year https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/99964077/farmer-sui...
    - microcolonel 7y ago
      That fact itself may be the most crucial. As far as I can tell, awareness of other people (especially people you would consider to be in a similar situation to yourself) committing suicide is widely considered a causal factor. Even this fairly level headed conversation, and the legal case, are likely to somewhat contribute to suicidal ideation through mere awareness. Having spent some time in rural Ontario, I can say it imbues one with a sense that life is worth living. ;- )

roenxi 7y ago

If corporate policy is so bad it provokes a wave of suicides then there will be a lot of evidence available. That level of pressure is not subtle.

sonnyblarney 7y ago
It's plain wrong to claim that some angry manager 'caused' someone to kill themselves. Also, it's questionable if there was in fact a 'rash of suicides': France has a rate of suicide of 12.9 / 100K / year. [1] France Telecom has 95 000 employees In France alone. [2] Here's the title of the Telegraph article: "Why have 24 France Telecom workers killed themselves in the past 19 months?" [3] Well, it would be expected that about 20.5 FT employees will commit suicide every 19 months or so, sadly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A. [3] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechnologyandtelecoms/6259384/Why-have-24-France-Telecom-workers-killed-themselves-in-the-past-19-months.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/mediatechno...
- wazoox 7y ago
  That's a common explanation, however it's necessary to refine the statistics, because FT employees may not match the general population.
  - mcguire 7y ago
    Would be fairly easy: compare suicides in FT across years, and with another telecom company going through similar changes.
- roenxi 7y ago
  As another commenter has mentioned; it is unlikely a sample of FTEs is going to reflect the general population for suicides so that isn't a very powerful argument. But that isn't what jumps out at me - to me the real issue is that if management pressure is so bad it is provoking suicides then there will be lots of evidence for it. Presumably the reason people are talking about it in newspaper articles is because they have seen evidence and are asking questions. The stats you have quoted suggest the number of suicides is already above average. That, combined with evidence of a problem, is very likely what has triggered the conversation at all. I've seen some angry workers, but generally all they want is more pay or to work with better conditions going forward. I'm not sure how many of them would bother trying to get managers imprisoned without good cause. I'd guess it would be about as rare as management policies being bad enough to cause suicides. The media might have wiped out a whole heap of nuance - so it isn't worth getting worked up over the case - but if lawsuits are flying then it is more likely than not that something went very visibly wrong.

Darkstryder 7y ago

As I said, the trial is not about these suicides, but about a company-wide harassement policy. I meant it as "alleged side-effect".