7 ms·

These are always really interesting comments because it shows exactly what happens when one is reductionist- up to the point where it agrees with their pre-exis

These are always really interesting comments because it shows exactly what happens when one is reductionist- up to the point where it agrees with their pre-existing views. Taxation is theft- they're taking your private property! The legitimacy of property rights, however, is rarely questioned. A common response is that property rights are obviously necessary- that society couldn't function without them. The same argument, though, applies to things like taxation! "Obviously, we need some taxes just to keep society running- roads, water, firefighting..." isn't an uncommon argument from more centrist types, and that tastes exactly the same as "property rights are necessary for civilization". The fact is, the moral authority of "I can kill you if you try to use this object, or enter this area of the world, which I call 'mine'" is just as worth questioning as that of "I can kill you if you try to use this object, or enter this area of the world, which I call 'mine'- unless you're authorized by a democratically elected, representative government, and we as citizens have collectively agreed that each of us must contribute towards the common good." If taxation is theft, then killing somebody to defend or retrieve your property is cold-blooded, probably premeditated, murder.

XMPPwocky 7y ago
And a little afterthought- > your wealth still goes to either the taxman involuntary by threat of licit force by the state or to voluntarily people that provide you goods and services that you deem beneficial This voluntary-involuntary distinction is just sort of asserted without a lot of examination of the actual situation. You're starving. Somebody else has bread for sale. You can buy the bread for an inflated price or starve. Is this voluntary? Perhaps it is- even though in practice you had no meaningful choice, in that particular situation the best outcome for you comes from paying almost any sum for that bread. There's an argument there that you chose to buy it willingly, rather than starve. You also have an option not to pay taxes! If you pay, you do so willingly. Yes, you'll wind up in prison, but- the best outcome for you comes from paying the taxes. You had a choice- you decided to purchase your freedom. This was voluntary. In fact, assuming a rational actor, in this shallow definition, practically everything they do is voluntary- if a spy is being tortured and gives up some information, they did so willingly- after all, they could have continued to suffer. If you're being held up at gunpoint, you choose to hand over your wallet- you make the rational choice that losing some cash and having to cancel your credit cards is preferable to being shot. Now consider one last situation- You're locked in a room, starving. There is some bread on a table. You go and try to eat the bread, but are stopped by a man with a gun. He will kill you if you eat it, he says, unless you pay him first. Your options are to die by starvation, get shot, or pay money. Is your choice to continue to live and to pay the money a voluntary one? And did you notice that this is the same situation as the first one?
sonnyblarney 7y ago
"The legitimacy of property rights, however, is rarely questioned." To be fair it's questioned a lot. In Canada, we made a new Constitution in the 1980's and the 'left party' was going to veto it if we included the specific rights to private property. Trudeau caved and so we don't have constitutionally protected rights to private property in the sense we might want. Though I don't think it's pragmatically much different from most nations.
- XMPPwocky 7y ago
  To be a bit more clear, I was referring to specifically from a conservative, capitalist perspective (which makes sense, since capitalism does sort of require capital to be property.) Libertarian arguments that killing somebody who is taking your property violates the NAP, for example, are rare birds.
AnthonyMouse 7y ago
> The same argument, though, applies to things like taxation! "Obviously, we need some taxes just to keep society running- roads, water, firefighting..." isn't an uncommon argument from more centrist types, and that tastes exactly the same as "property rights are necessary for civilization". FWIW there are a large number of places that to this day have an all-volunteer fire department, and there are places with private water companies and private roads. (And having an all-volunteer police force in the same spirit of a volunteer fire department is a thing more places should have -- and avoid all the trouble we get when the police think they're different than regular people.) Of course, the places with private roads tend to have the road maintenance company end up looking a lot like a local government, in the sense that you either pay your share of the road maintenance or you can't use the only road to your home, which is coercive. But there is still a highly relevant difference in that the road maintenance company doesn't force you to buy into their social insurance programs and pay for their military excursions even if you don't want to. And if you decide you want to be a hermit who never leaves home and doesn't need roads, you don't go to jail for not paying for them. The difference is the level of coercion that actually exists. Nobody is going to refuse to pay a reasonable road maintenance fee for their own local roads, because the value vastly exceeds the cost. But if the road company tried to claim that in order to use the roads you would have to give them your sons to die in their wars, you would tell them to eat sand and pay the cost of building new roads so you don't have to use theirs. Which, even though very expensive, puts an upper bound on the level of coercion you have to put up with. That doesn't exist with a government. Even if their demands are completely unreasonable, they have the capacity to make your alternative worse. > Your options are to die by starvation, get shot, or pay money. Is your choice to continue to live and to pay the money a voluntary one? You're ignoring the possibility of buying food from someone else. The anti-government argument is fundamentally an anti-monopoly argument. If there is a private monopoly on food then that's just a de facto government which has seized power by controlling the food supply. But if there isn't a monopoly then no one can point a gun at you and force you to pay an arbitrarily large amount of money for necessities, because you can turn around and buy it from any of a hundred others who charge more reasonable prices. Or produce it yourself if you're so inclined.
- XMPPwocky 7y ago
malandrew 7y ago
I'm not against taxes. Tariffs and excise taxes that pretty directly support the commerce enabling activities of the state are totally fair. Income taxes in particular are theft.

XMPPwocky 7y ago

And a little afterthought- > your wealth still goes to either the taxman involuntary by threat of licit force by the state or to voluntarily people that provide you goods and services that you deem beneficial This voluntary-involuntary distinction is just sort of asserted without a lot of examination of the actual situation. You're starving. Somebody else has bread for sale. You can buy the bread for an inflated price or starve. Is this voluntary? Perhaps it is- even though in practice you had no meaningful choice, in that particular situation the best outcome for you comes from paying almost any sum for that bread. There's an argument there that you chose to buy it willingly, rather than starve. You also have an option not to pay taxes! If you pay, you do so willingly. Yes, you'll wind up in prison, but- the best outcome for you comes from paying the taxes. You had a choice- you decided to purchase your freedom. This was voluntary. In fact, assuming a rational actor, in this shallow definition, practically everything they do is voluntary- if a spy is being tortured and gives up some information, they did so willingly- after all, they could have continued to suffer. If you're being held up at gunpoint, you choose to hand over your wallet- you make the rational choice that losing some cash and having to cancel your credit cards is preferable to being shot. Now consider one last situation- You're locked in a room, starving. There is some bread on a table. You go and try to eat the bread, but are stopped by a man with a gun. He will kill you if you eat it, he says, unless you pay him first. Your options are to die by starvation, get shot, or pay money. Is your choice to continue to live and to pay the money a voluntary one? And did you notice that this is the same situation as the first one?

sonnyblarney 7y ago

"The legitimacy of property rights, however, is rarely questioned." To be fair it's questioned a lot. In Canada, we made a new Constitution in the 1980's and the 'left party' was going to veto it if we included the specific rights to private property. Trudeau caved and so we don't have constitutionally protected rights to private property in the sense we might want. Though I don't think it's pragmatically much different from most nations.

XMPPwocky 7y ago
To be a bit more clear, I was referring to specifically from a conservative, capitalist perspective (which makes sense, since capitalism does sort of require capital to be property.) Libertarian arguments that killing somebody who is taking your property violates the NAP, for example, are rare birds.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

> The same argument, though, applies to things like taxation! "Obviously, we need some taxes just to keep society running- roads, water, firefighting..." isn't an uncommon argument from more centrist types, and that tastes exactly the same as "property rights are necessary for civilization". FWIW there are a large number of places that to this day have an all-volunteer fire department, and there are places with private water companies and private roads. (And having an all-volunteer police force in the same spirit of a volunteer fire department is a thing more places should have -- and avoid all the trouble we get when the police think they're different than regular people.) Of course, the places with private roads tend to have the road maintenance company end up looking a lot like a local government, in the sense that you either pay your share of the road maintenance or you can't use the only road to your home, which is coercive. But there is still a highly relevant difference in that the road maintenance company doesn't force you to buy into their social insurance programs and pay for their military excursions even if you don't want to. And if you decide you want to be a hermit who never leaves home and doesn't need roads, you don't go to jail for not paying for them. The difference is the level of coercion that actually exists. Nobody is going to refuse to pay a reasonable road maintenance fee for their own local roads, because the value vastly exceeds the cost. But if the road company tried to claim that in order to use the roads you would have to give them your sons to die in their wars, you would tell them to eat sand and pay the cost of building new roads so you don't have to use theirs. Which, even though very expensive, puts an upper bound on the level of coercion you have to put up with. That doesn't exist with a government. Even if their demands are completely unreasonable, they have the capacity to make your alternative worse. > Your options are to die by starvation, get shot, or pay money. Is your choice to continue to live and to pay the money a voluntary one? You're ignoring the possibility of buying food from someone else. The anti-government argument is fundamentally an anti-monopoly argument. If there is a private monopoly on food then that's just a de facto government which has seized power by controlling the food supply. But if there isn't a monopoly then no one can point a gun at you and force you to pay an arbitrarily large amount of money for necessities, because you can turn around and buy it from any of a hundred others who charge more reasonable prices. Or produce it yourself if you're so inclined.

XMPPwocky 7y ago

malandrew 7y ago

I'm not against taxes. Tariffs and excise taxes that pretty directly support the commerce enabling activities of the state are totally fair. Income taxes in particular are theft.