4 ms·

Nice try Karl Marx, but that simply isn't true, especially in the States. If you provide value, you will get out of poverty and even get rich. You don't always

Nice try Karl Marx, but that simply isn't true, especially in the States. If you provide value, you will get out of poverty and even get rich. You don't always need money personally to provide value.

omegaworks 7y ago
Your company captures the value you provide, and attempts to pay you as little as possible in the process. This is the process by which profit itself is created.
- 6cd6beb 7y ago
  So? There's more than one party negotiating that rate of pay. Think it's unfair for one person to negotiate against a company? Maybe, but that's where unions become useful. There's ill will against them, and they're not widely used (at least in tech), but maybe that's the problem. If so it's not a problem worth tearing down the whole system.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  In this day and age, you often don't need a corporation behind you to provide value. Actually, it seems like not even in the past you did, since many many companies were started in a garage.
  - omegaworks 7y ago
    The garage mythos borders on capitalist propaganda. Here's Steve Wozniak debunking the Apple garage myth: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/dec/05/steve-wozniak-apple-starting-in-a-garage-is-a-myth https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/dec/05/steve-woz... And an entire thread debunking the "started in a garage" for the market dominators of today: https://twitter.com/historic_ly/status/1119980086420299777 https://twitter.com/historic_ly/status/1119980086420299777 These founders have always had some access to resources above and beyond what is considered "standard issue." It's about time we get realistic about the necessary conditions that were required to start these radically successful companies, because we shouldn't design economies or social policies around myths.
dagss 7y ago
How do you get the mental resources and education to "provide value"? How do you become resourceful? Simplest way is: Do not be born in a poor family. On a more narrow level -- if people have to worry about food on the table, the stress itself causes IQ to drop, also in experiments. Of course there are exceptions, but on a statistical level, poverty is inherited -- because of what you mention, not in spite of it!
- 6cd6beb 7y ago
  Two kinds of people in this system. One of them thinks if you work hard you can climb your way out of poverty through your own self determination and hard work.
  - afuchs 7y ago
    > Two kinds of people in this system. Three or more if you count more realistic viewpoints. > Two kinds of people in this system. One of them thinks if you work hard you can climb your way out of poverty through your own self determination and hard work. Self determination and hard work is necessary for success but it doesn't mean much without opportunity. Opportunity is unevenly distributed. What one person see as value, which creates someone else's opportunity, is often determined by subjective social and cultural factors and isn't always objective or rational.
    - nkkollaw 7y ago
      Everything is unevenly distributed. Race, height, money, attractiveness, IQ, etc. If you are unlucky, you have to work more. If opportunity doesn't present itself, you go look for it.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  In Europe, universities are free. Poor people get housing, money for food, etc. if you go to school. I studied in the States and some people at my college were being paid $700/mo. on top of dorms if they took at least a handful of classes. If poverty is inherited it's because of a negative culture and worldview is passed down, not because of money.
frankbreetz 7y ago
If you provide value someone will get rich. I would say rarely the person providing the value and the one getting rich are the same.
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  Can you give me an example? The guy who has the idea and takes the risk is 1000 times more important than the guy who assembles the idea. That's why they get paid more.
rellekio 7y ago
https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ It's about something new versus what we have tried to this point.
codr7 7y ago
Unlikely, I'm pretty sure he's dead since a while back. You need money to survive. There are ways of getting rich, but few have anything to do with how much value you provide. If anything, the wrinkly ass hats who are ruining this world for profit are net negative. Being rich is easiest of course, that's how it mostly happens. The giant pyramid scheme known as Capitalism is going Dodo one way or other, that much is obvious to me.
blacksqr 7y ago
Capitalism is explicitly designed to ensure that those who provide value don't get to keep it. Value is funneled to those who have capital. Hence "capitalism."
- nkkollaw 7y ago
  Im a car factory, workers who make cars provide value, but management who keep the company afloat, owners who take all the risk, etc. provide an even greater value. I'm amazed people don't see that and simplify the whole thing into "owners exploit workers". It's just absurd.

Nice try Karl Marx, but that simply isn't true, especially in the States. If you provide value, you will get out of poverty and even get rich. You don't always need money personally to provide value.

omegaworks 7y ago

Your company captures the value you provide, and attempts to pay you as little as possible in the process. This is the process by which profit itself is created.

6cd6beb 7y ago
So? There's more than one party negotiating that rate of pay. Think it's unfair for one person to negotiate against a company? Maybe, but that's where unions become useful. There's ill will against them, and they're not widely used (at least in tech), but maybe that's the problem. If so it's not a problem worth tearing down the whole system.
nkkollaw 7y ago
In this day and age, you often don't need a corporation behind you to provide value. Actually, it seems like not even in the past you did, since many many companies were started in a garage.
- omegaworks 7y ago
  The garage mythos borders on capitalist propaganda. Here's Steve Wozniak debunking the Apple garage myth: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/dec/05/steve-wozniak-apple-starting-in-a-garage-is-a-myth https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/dec/05/steve-woz... And an entire thread debunking the "started in a garage" for the market dominators of today: https://twitter.com/historic_ly/status/1119980086420299777 https://twitter.com/historic_ly/status/1119980086420299777 These founders have always had some access to resources above and beyond what is considered "standard issue." It's about time we get realistic about the necessary conditions that were required to start these radically successful companies, because we shouldn't design economies or social policies around myths.

dagss 7y ago

How do you get the mental resources and education to "provide value"? How do you become resourceful? Simplest way is: Do not be born in a poor family. On a more narrow level -- if people have to worry about food on the table, the stress itself causes IQ to drop, also in experiments. Of course there are exceptions, but on a statistical level, poverty is inherited -- because of what you mention, not in spite of it!

6cd6beb 7y ago
Two kinds of people in this system. One of them thinks if you work hard you can climb your way out of poverty through your own self determination and hard work.
- afuchs 7y ago
  > Two kinds of people in this system. Three or more if you count more realistic viewpoints. > Two kinds of people in this system. One of them thinks if you work hard you can climb your way out of poverty through your own self determination and hard work. Self determination and hard work is necessary for success but it doesn't mean much without opportunity. Opportunity is unevenly distributed. What one person see as value, which creates someone else's opportunity, is often determined by subjective social and cultural factors and isn't always objective or rational.
  - nkkollaw 7y ago
    Everything is unevenly distributed. Race, height, money, attractiveness, IQ, etc. If you are unlucky, you have to work more. If opportunity doesn't present itself, you go look for it.
nkkollaw 7y ago
In Europe, universities are free. Poor people get housing, money for food, etc. if you go to school. I studied in the States and some people at my college were being paid $700/mo. on top of dorms if they took at least a handful of classes. If poverty is inherited it's because of a negative culture and worldview is passed down, not because of money.

frankbreetz 7y ago

If you provide value someone will get rich. I would say rarely the person providing the value and the one getting rich are the same.

nkkollaw 7y ago
Can you give me an example? The guy who has the idea and takes the risk is 1000 times more important than the guy who assembles the idea. That's why they get paid more.

rellekio 7y ago

https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/ It's about something new versus what we have tried to this point.

codr7 7y ago

Unlikely, I'm pretty sure he's dead since a while back. You need money to survive. There are ways of getting rich, but few have anything to do with how much value you provide. If anything, the wrinkly ass hats who are ruining this world for profit are net negative. Being rich is easiest of course, that's how it mostly happens. The giant pyramid scheme known as Capitalism is going Dodo one way or other, that much is obvious to me.

blacksqr 7y ago

Capitalism is explicitly designed to ensure that those who provide value don't get to keep it. Value is funneled to those who have capital. Hence "capitalism."

nkkollaw 7y ago
Im a car factory, workers who make cars provide value, but management who keep the company afloat, owners who take all the risk, etc. provide an even greater value. I'm amazed people don't see that and simplify the whole thing into "owners exploit workers". It's just absurd.