7 ms·

Rice, lentils, beans, all are much less nutrient dense than most animal foods. It's important to account for the fact that plant foods often come with antinutr

Rice, lentils, beans, all are much less nutrient dense than most animal foods. It's important to account for the fact that plant foods often come with antinutrients (lectins, phytates, oxalates) which block absorption of vitamins. Most plant sources also supply only incomplete amino acid profiles. Also, plant foods often have their vitamins amounts listed in the form of precursors and not the bio-available kind that your body can utilize without a conversion process. So, iron in spinach? It's not heme-iron, so it's not so great when you consider the above along with a high oxalate payload. Vitamin A in carrots? It in carotinoids such as beta-carotine rather than retinol which is the format your body uses. Your body prefers bioavailable forms of vitamins and nutrients, rather than spending energy converting to usable formats. This is why animal foods are so hard to beat for nutrient density. E.g., herbivore animals graze on plants, converting the nutrients into animal-appropriate formats and fuller-spectrum proteins.

sorenjan 7y ago
You still need fiber to feel satiated and have a healthy GI tract. Oats, salad, and other vegetables are good options.
- QuantumAphid 7y ago
  Everybody is different. Some people tolerate fiber well. Others have gut issues (e.g. diversticulitis, colitis) or overdo it and end up with digestive problems. From what I've read, the fiber guidelines are basically made-up and not based on any formal nutritional controlled studies. When you think about it, fiber is literally undigestible plant material. It seems a bit strange for your health/body to depend on consumption of something which cannot be digested.
  - sorenjan 7y ago
    Nothing strange about hunter gatherers evolve eating a lot of fiber. Think about the other extreme, what if you took in all your energy and nutrients through fluids. How well would your bowels work with nothing in them but liquids? I know my bowel movements are much easier after I've eaten some salad than after a low fiber meal. There's plenty of articles about fiber, here's just a short list I just found. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/how-fiber-helps-prevent-colon-cancer https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/how-fiber-helps-prevent-c... https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Dietary_fiber_and_colon_cancer_The_pendulum_swings_again https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Dietary_fi... https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d6617 https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d6617 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/
    - QuantumAphid 7y ago
      I'm talking about whether or not they are essential. I eat very little plants and don't have any problems. I also practice fasting from time to time, and I don't have any problems with no food of any kind for days at a time. Go figure. I've never heard of anyone dying from lack of fiber. Have you? Is there a medical condition for this? I'm sure that some hunter gatherers ate plants containing fiber. We are omnivores and able to get calories from many different sources depending on availability in our environment. That still doesn't mean that fiber is a necessity or requirement.
      - cesnja 7y ago
        It's apparently called colon cancer: https://www.webmd.com/colorectal-cancer/news/20111110/high-fiber-diet-linked-to-lower-colon-cancer-risk#1 https://www.webmd.com/colorectal-cancer/news/20111110/high-f...
        QuantumAphid 7y ago
        Nope. Lack of fiber is not a cause of colon cancer. A more objective view of the science is: “...the interactions between meat, gut and health outcomes such as CRC [colorectal cancer] are very complex and are not clearly pointing in one direction... Epidemiological and mechanistic data on associations between red and processed meat intake and CRC are inconsistent and underlying mechanisms are unclear... Better biomarkers of meat intake and of cancer occurrence and updated food composition databases are required for future studies.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24769880 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24769880
        QuantumAphid 7y ago
        Fiber and colorectal diseases: Separating fact from fiction - World Journal of Gastroenterology https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm "This article reviews the physiology of ingestion of fiber and defecation. It also looks into the impact of dietary fiber on various colorectal diseases. A strong case cannot be made for a protective effect of dietary fiber against colorectal polyp or cancer. Neither has fiber been found to be useful in chronic constipation and irritable bowel syndrome. It is also not useful in the treatment of perianal conditions. The fiber deficit - diverticulosis theory should also be challenged. The authors urge clinicians to keep an open mind about fiber. One must be aware of the truths and myths about fiber before recommending it. ... a strong recommendation cannot be made for a protective effect of dietary fiber against colorectal polyp or cancer. Despite a lack of evidence however, current recommendations are still to increase dietary fiber. In the latest position statement of the American Dietetic Association[3], increasing dietary fiber is still promoted to protect against colon cancer despite stating that there is no proof of efficacy in this regard ... Whilst it is not the intention of the authors to totally discourage fiber in the diet and the use of fiber supplements, there does not seem to be much use for fiber in colorectal diseases. We, however, want to emphasize that what we have all been made to believe about fiber needs a second look. We often choose to believe a lie, as a lie repeated often enough by enough people becomes accepted as the truth. We urge clinicians to keep an open mind. While there are some benefits of a diet high in natural fiber, one must know the exact indications before recommending such a diet. Myths about fiber must be debunked and truth installed."
- QuantumAphid 7y ago
  Some information about fiber for consideration. Dr. Zoë Harcombe - 'What about fiber?' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrmpK_Lckg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrmpK_Lckg
  - sorenjan 7y ago
    I don't know why you feel so strongly about this subject that you return to it four days later, but she is not an objective expert. She sounds like yet another low carb high fat preacher that wants to sell books, and she makes a flippant remark about how you emit methane after eating beans while "the vegans are blaming the cows". Oh, and she seems to eat plenty of fiber herself: > I eat fruit most days, but not too much and because I like it, not because I think it is good for me. I eat a lot of vegetables/salads – locally grown/in season wherever possible. [...]. I do eat starchy carbs – just not daily. I enjoy porridge (plain oats and whole milk) – especially in the winter. I like brown rice and (veggie) curries/chilli. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Harcombe https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Harcombe Even if you don't believe in or care about any health benefits fiber may have, two benefits are immediate after eating them: they fill you up and make you feel full without containing any energy which helps mediate calorie consumption, and they make bowel movements easier, at least if you drink enough water. I believe most people would feel better if they ate more fiber instead of red meat and fries.
    - QuantumAphid 7y ago
      Fiber and colorectal diseases: Separating fact from fiction - World Journal of Gastroenterology https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm Eat as much fiber as you like. I don't think it's necessary to eat fiber to be healthy, but if you like it, eat it.
McWobbleston 7y ago
They may be less nutrient dense, but mostly vegetarian diets are still recommended for longevity by dieticians Also, I was under the impression that the vast majority of lectins are removed during preparation/cooking of plant foods
- QuantumAphid 7y ago
  Do whatever works for you. Try different diets, you might be surprised.
- QuantumAphid 7y ago
  Interesting debate on this topic between Nina Teicholz and David L. Katz, MD. Good points on both sides. Are Vegetarians Healthier than Omnivores? A Soho Forum Debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qDYl4zHmAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qDYl4zHmAg
Japhy_Ryder 7y ago
There is so much wrong with your post that I don't even know where to begin. > Rice, lentils, beans, all are much less nutrient dense than most animal foods. Plant foods are vastly more nutritious than animal sources. Where is the fiber in animal "food", for example? Or the vast array of phytochemicals, polyphenols/flavonoids, etc.? Also, the WHO has recently pointed out that processed/red meat is carcinogenic. [0] > This is why animal foods are so hard to beat for nutrient density. I don't think you understand what "nutrient density" means. Please take a look at what Joel Fhurman, MD, has to say on the matter[1]. Curious, what is your background? It doesn't seem to be in nutrition. This is dangerous pseudoscience that you're spreading. 0. https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/ https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/ 1. https://www.drfuhrman.com/get-started/eat-to-live-blog/88/nutrient-density https://www.drfuhrman.com/get-started/eat-to-live-blog/88/nu...
- metanoia 7y ago
  Nutrient density and bioavailability are two very different things. Kale is extremely nutrient dense but as the parent poster has pointed out, the anti-nutrients [1] reduce the absorption of said nutrients. You can take kale into a lab and determine that it has so much of nutrient X and Y but in reality, do you absorb it? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663599/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663599/
- ergothus 7y ago
  > There is so much wrong with your post that I don't even know where to begin. There is so much going on in these posts that I don't even know where to begin. Above poster makes claims. I'm like "I don't know nutrition, but this sounds good". You make counter-claims. "Those sound good too". Crap. Now I can start digging into your respective sources...but of course those will just be people making claims too, they just get different sources of authority. This happens everywhere anymore. Do guns improve safety? Are immigrants bad for the economy? Do immigrants commit more crime? Is climate change real? With the Alabama abortion ban in the news I looked into rates, but couldn't find good numbers. (Superficially it looks like there are 10x the number of abortions than infant mortality, but good luck figuring out how many of those abortions were purely voluntary and not due to health reasons). Trying not to be misled feels both futile and exhausting. Not ripping on your post at all, just reacting to the pent-up emotions it evoked.

sorenjan 7y ago

You still need fiber to feel satiated and have a healthy GI tract. Oats, salad, and other vegetables are good options.

QuantumAphid 7y ago
Everybody is different. Some people tolerate fiber well. Others have gut issues (e.g. diversticulitis, colitis) or overdo it and end up with digestive problems. From what I've read, the fiber guidelines are basically made-up and not based on any formal nutritional controlled studies. When you think about it, fiber is literally undigestible plant material. It seems a bit strange for your health/body to depend on consumption of something which cannot be digested.
- sorenjan 7y ago
  Nothing strange about hunter gatherers evolve eating a lot of fiber. Think about the other extreme, what if you took in all your energy and nutrients through fluids. How well would your bowels work with nothing in them but liquids? I know my bowel movements are much easier after I've eaten some salad than after a low fiber meal. There's plenty of articles about fiber, here's just a short list I just found. https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/how-fiber-helps-prevent-colon-cancer https://www.pharmacytimes.com/news/how-fiber-helps-prevent-c... https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Dietary_fiber_and_colon_cancer_The_pendulum_swings_again https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/Dietary_fi... https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d6617 https://www.bmj.com/content/343/bmj.d6617 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4588743/
  - QuantumAphid 7y ago
    I'm talking about whether or not they are essential. I eat very little plants and don't have any problems. I also practice fasting from time to time, and I don't have any problems with no food of any kind for days at a time. Go figure. I've never heard of anyone dying from lack of fiber. Have you? Is there a medical condition for this? I'm sure that some hunter gatherers ate plants containing fiber. We are omnivores and able to get calories from many different sources depending on availability in our environment. That still doesn't mean that fiber is a necessity or requirement.
    - cesnja 7y ago
      It's apparently called colon cancer: https://www.webmd.com/colorectal-cancer/news/20111110/high-fiber-diet-linked-to-lower-colon-cancer-risk#1 https://www.webmd.com/colorectal-cancer/news/20111110/high-f...
      - QuantumAphid 7y ago
        Nope. Lack of fiber is not a cause of colon cancer. A more objective view of the science is: “...the interactions between meat, gut and health outcomes such as CRC [colorectal cancer] are very complex and are not clearly pointing in one direction... Epidemiological and mechanistic data on associations between red and processed meat intake and CRC are inconsistent and underlying mechanisms are unclear... Better biomarkers of meat intake and of cancer occurrence and updated food composition databases are required for future studies.” http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24769880 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24769880
      - QuantumAphid 7y ago
        Fiber and colorectal diseases: Separating fact from fiction - World Journal of Gastroenterology https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm "This article reviews the physiology of ingestion of fiber and defecation. It also looks into the impact of dietary fiber on various colorectal diseases. A strong case cannot be made for a protective effect of dietary fiber against colorectal polyp or cancer. Neither has fiber been found to be useful in chronic constipation and irritable bowel syndrome. It is also not useful in the treatment of perianal conditions. The fiber deficit - diverticulosis theory should also be challenged. The authors urge clinicians to keep an open mind about fiber. One must be aware of the truths and myths about fiber before recommending it. ... a strong recommendation cannot be made for a protective effect of dietary fiber against colorectal polyp or cancer. Despite a lack of evidence however, current recommendations are still to increase dietary fiber. In the latest position statement of the American Dietetic Association[3], increasing dietary fiber is still promoted to protect against colon cancer despite stating that there is no proof of efficacy in this regard ... Whilst it is not the intention of the authors to totally discourage fiber in the diet and the use of fiber supplements, there does not seem to be much use for fiber in colorectal diseases. We, however, want to emphasize that what we have all been made to believe about fiber needs a second look. We often choose to believe a lie, as a lie repeated often enough by enough people becomes accepted as the truth. We urge clinicians to keep an open mind. While there are some benefits of a diet high in natural fiber, one must know the exact indications before recommending such a diet. Myths about fiber must be debunked and truth installed."
QuantumAphid 7y ago
Some information about fiber for consideration. Dr. Zoë Harcombe - 'What about fiber?' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrmpK_Lckg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrmpK_Lckg
- sorenjan 7y ago
  I don't know why you feel so strongly about this subject that you return to it four days later, but she is not an objective expert. She sounds like yet another low carb high fat preacher that wants to sell books, and she makes a flippant remark about how you emit methane after eating beans while "the vegans are blaming the cows". Oh, and she seems to eat plenty of fiber herself: > I eat fruit most days, but not too much and because I like it, not because I think it is good for me. I eat a lot of vegetables/salads – locally grown/in season wherever possible. [...]. I do eat starchy carbs – just not daily. I enjoy porridge (plain oats and whole milk) – especially in the winter. I like brown rice and (veggie) curries/chilli. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Harcombe https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Zo%C3%AB_Harcombe Even if you don't believe in or care about any health benefits fiber may have, two benefits are immediate after eating them: they fill you up and make you feel full without containing any energy which helps mediate calorie consumption, and they make bowel movements easier, at least if you drink enough water. I believe most people would feel better if they ate more fiber instead of red meat and fries.
  - QuantumAphid 7y ago
    Fiber and colorectal diseases: Separating fact from fiction - World Journal of Gastroenterology https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm https://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/full/v13/i31/4161.htm Eat as much fiber as you like. I don't think it's necessary to eat fiber to be healthy, but if you like it, eat it.

McWobbleston 7y ago

They may be less nutrient dense, but mostly vegetarian diets are still recommended for longevity by dieticians Also, I was under the impression that the vast majority of lectins are removed during preparation/cooking of plant foods

QuantumAphid 7y ago
Do whatever works for you. Try different diets, you might be surprised.
QuantumAphid 7y ago
Interesting debate on this topic between Nina Teicholz and David L. Katz, MD. Good points on both sides. Are Vegetarians Healthier than Omnivores? A Soho Forum Debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qDYl4zHmAg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qDYl4zHmAg

Japhy_Ryder 7y ago

There is so much wrong with your post that I don't even know where to begin. > Rice, lentils, beans, all are much less nutrient dense than most animal foods. Plant foods are vastly more nutritious than animal sources. Where is the fiber in animal "food", for example? Or the vast array of phytochemicals, polyphenols/flavonoids, etc.? Also, the WHO has recently pointed out that processed/red meat is carcinogenic. [0] > This is why animal foods are so hard to beat for nutrient density. I don't think you understand what "nutrient density" means. Please take a look at what Joel Fhurman, MD, has to say on the matter[1]. Curious, what is your background? It doesn't seem to be in nutrition. This is dangerous pseudoscience that you're spreading. 0. https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/ https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/ 1. https://www.drfuhrman.com/get-started/eat-to-live-blog/88/nutrient-density https://www.drfuhrman.com/get-started/eat-to-live-blog/88/nu...

metanoia 7y ago
Nutrient density and bioavailability are two very different things. Kale is extremely nutrient dense but as the parent poster has pointed out, the anti-nutrients [1] reduce the absorption of said nutrients. You can take kale into a lab and determine that it has so much of nutrient X and Y but in reality, do you absorb it? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663599/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4663599/
ergothus 7y ago
> There is so much wrong with your post that I don't even know where to begin. There is so much going on in these posts that I don't even know where to begin. Above poster makes claims. I'm like "I don't know nutrition, but this sounds good". You make counter-claims. "Those sound good too". Crap. Now I can start digging into your respective sources...but of course those will just be people making claims too, they just get different sources of authority. This happens everywhere anymore. Do guns improve safety? Are immigrants bad for the economy? Do immigrants commit more crime? Is climate change real? With the Alabama abortion ban in the news I looked into rates, but couldn't find good numbers. (Superficially it looks like there are 10x the number of abortions than infant mortality, but good luck figuring out how many of those abortions were purely voluntary and not due to health reasons). Trying not to be misled feels both futile and exhausting. Not ripping on your post at all, just reacting to the pent-up emotions it evoked.