7 ms·

Peergos Alpha – A decentralized file storage and communication network

82 points by ianopolous 7y ago

jmmcd 7y ago
Please use an informative title.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  How is it now?
eamonnmaguire 7y ago
Congrats guys!!
aakilfernandes 7y ago
I'm a little confused what the use case is for this. Can someone elaborate?
- ianopolous 7y ago
  It's a place for you to store your stuff, where you control who see's what. You get fine grained access control (per file or directory) all enforced cryptographically. We try hard to hide metadata as well - like file names and sizes, directory structure, your social graph. It doesn't inherently depend on DNS or the TLS certificate authorities for operation (clearly using the public web interface does, but you can also run it locally).
- SuspiciousSwan 7y ago
  Right now, we have a consumer, provider model of the internet. The internet in the 90s was very different, and looked much more peer-to-peer. The higher level sharing and storage that we have now through services such as Facebook, Instagram, Dropbox, etc, could have been built in a peer-to-peer way, on top of things like Peergos. I do not think that Peergos will necessarily be the exact technology that a new, decentralized version of internet technologies will be built on, but we are building the infrastructure and knowledge needed to be ready for power and economics shifts online.
- ttul 7y ago
  Didn't you watch Silicon Valley? It's the answer to Hooli's Box III.
Kemejii 7y ago
Amazing! How it works?
- ianopolous 7y ago
  There's a talk introducing the architecture here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54pShffxvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54pShffxvI TLDR: It's a cryptographic capability based global filesystem with a focus on privacy.
davidy123 7y ago
I tried to sign up, but just got `(TypeError) : Cannot read property 'dhtClient' of null` on submitting the form. Chrome 74 on Linux. All blockers off/tried in incognito.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  Thanks for letting us know. We've had 2 other reports of that error, but so far we haven't been able to reproduce it. We've tried chrome 74 on windows and 73 on Linux.
- detritus 7y ago
  Am getting the same on Firefox 66, Windows
- ianopolous 7y ago
  We think we've just figured out the cause, and deployed a fix. Are you able to sign up now? You may need to CTRL+F5 force refresh. Blockers shouldn't matter because we don't have any third party hosted content, not even fonts.
- Y_Y 7y ago
  I successfully signed up with FF67 on Linux just now.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
kitotik 7y ago
How does this compare to IPFS and the DAT project?
- prophesi 7y ago
  It seems like it uses IPFS under-the-hood. So they're essentially handling the end-to-end encryption aspect of it, so that those hosting it via IPFS can't see the data.
  - ianopolous 7y ago
    Yes, we use IPFS as a datastore using their IPLD merkle tree data structure, and as a p2p networking stack. Disclaimer: I also work on IPFS
    - asdkhadsj 7y ago
      On that note, how does this differ from FileCoin? Is it basically a self-hosted NAS on top of IPFS?
fabrice_d 7y ago
In the https://peergos.org/features https://peergos.org/features page we can read: "Alternatively you can pay another provider to store your data (they won't be able to read your files). Currently, we have a small central server which stores usernames and public key" So IPFS is useful to eventually have your data copied to other nodes, but you need centralized servers for basically all reliable operations?
- zaroth 7y ago
  Or you need a Pi-like device on your network to act as your personal storage node. I think if you could plug in an old iPhone/Android and have it become your host I don’t see why that couldn’t be mainstream. Everyone (who would consider using this) has an old phone they can plug in and forget.
  - fabrice_d 7y ago
    Plug and forget, and one day realize your data is lost? That's the thing I really can't wrap my mind around with these kind of solutions: how can they be advocated while not offering a good way to be reliable? That's doing a disservice to the other good parts like the better privacy.
    - basch 7y ago
      Thats almost how I feel about using raspberry pis as servers in general. Arent I better off with 1 computer, running the free Citrix Xen, that I can run ALL my servers on, instead of a closet full of raspberry pis to manage. Just because you can... Is this thing pronounced purge os? Even if its not supposed to be..
      - zaroth 7y ago
        Of course you can also do that, but right for now 99% of people “all the servers” are exactly 0 servers. Even the concept of a “server” is foreign. Maybe the first server most people buy is a home NAS or wireless gateway. Those types of devices should also be able to act as the host as long as they have pluggable storage.
marknadal 7y ago
Trying out the demo, got this warning: > I understand that passwords cannot be reset or recovered - if I forget my password, then I will lose access to my account and all my data Shame, cause P2P password resets are totally possible these days, see my tweets on this with Brendan Eich: https://twitter.com/marknadal/status/1131258225095991296 https://twitter.com/marknadal/status/1131258225095991296 Also, I just got: > Error: User already exists! How is this decentralized then? Unless it is using a blockchain to register usernames, then there has to be a master server that "decides" whose username is taken. Or worse: It is decentralized, but not offline-first (what happens if I register without internet access)? What is the point of being P2P/decentralized if I need to be connected to a peer? > Creating filesystem Is really slow! Is this IPFS? Small actions, like "send friend request" takes ~5seconds. Have you guys tried using something faster? There is a P2P version of Reddit ( https://notabug.io/ https://notabug.io/ ) and he's done a ton of optimizations to make things instant, probably require switching p2p protocols though. Overall, it worked! That is saying a lot in the blockchain/decentralized world. So this should actually be viewed as a huge success. Congrats!
- iffycan 7y ago
  Or use Shamir's Secret Sharing to split your key/password up between friends at the outset: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir%27s_Secret_Sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir%27s_Secret_Sharing
  - marknadal 7y ago
    Great reference! Do you know of a WebCrypto based implementation of this? Or even libsodium? That has been my hold back.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  Hi Mark, Thanks for your feedback. We do hope to use shamir secret sharing among your friends to allow password recovery in the future, but that's strictly less secure (your friend's can collude against you) and would be optional. There is a centralised pki to ensure unique usernames (eventually it could be made into a blockchain - it's already an append only merkle-tree in ipfs, but this is an alpha). This is a UX tradeoff. Peergos is designed to be used by people who can use facebook - they should never need to see a hash or manage their keys. Once you have signed up and claimed your username you only need to interact with your storage node (and those of your friends for social stuff) unless you need to lookup a new friend who's recently signed up. Some things are slow yes, we have a lot of optimisation to do, but wanted to start getting feedback.
anigbrowl 7y ago
Another one? These are all subject to network effects. consider them contractions on the way to the birth of the successor to the web.
- asdkhadsj 7y ago
  > These are all subject to network effects. Can you describe in more detail the issue? Would love to hear critical thoughts on this project, as I'm interested, but wary.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    It's just the chicken-and-egg problem - how do you get enough people using it for it to be a real resource, vs another OK-but-not-outstanding platform that has a few dedicated users but too shallow a community? I'm a bit cranky about it because I have watched a bunch of projects like this bud and then fail to develop even though they were/all very worthy in their way.
    - asdkhadsj 7y ago
      Ah hah, appreciate the depth. I misunderstood your comment and thought you meant it was vulnerable to some type of network attack haha.
asdkhadsj 7y ago
Are binaries / programmatic access available? I've been writing a knowledge repository and was debating using IPFS to distribute encrypted files. However Peergos is interesting for the same reason. To toy around with the alpha I'd like to experiment with integrating the sharing model with my project.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  We are distributing releases through Peergos itself: https://alpha.peergos.net/public/peergos/releases https://alpha.peergos.net/public/peergos/releases The rest api is quite simple, and mostly a subset of the IPFS rest api. The complexity is mostly client side. We have a Java client, which we cross compile to JS for the browser. If you're mainly interested in the access control mechanism it is a simplification of cryptree: https://github.com/Peergos/Peergos/tree/master/papers https://github.com/Peergos/Peergos/tree/master/papers
davidcollantes 7y ago
Sign up is broken. It didn’t finished, but now shows user taken. Would love to try login in, but can’t find the login screen.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  The login url is https://alpha.peergos.net https://alpha.peergos.net

82 points by ianopolous 7y ago

jmmcd 7y ago

Please use an informative title.

ianopolous 7y ago
How is it now?

eamonnmaguire 7y ago

Congrats guys!!

aakilfernandes 7y ago

I'm a little confused what the use case is for this. Can someone elaborate?

ianopolous 7y ago
It's a place for you to store your stuff, where you control who see's what. You get fine grained access control (per file or directory) all enforced cryptographically. We try hard to hide metadata as well - like file names and sizes, directory structure, your social graph. It doesn't inherently depend on DNS or the TLS certificate authorities for operation (clearly using the public web interface does, but you can also run it locally).
SuspiciousSwan 7y ago
Right now, we have a consumer, provider model of the internet. The internet in the 90s was very different, and looked much more peer-to-peer. The higher level sharing and storage that we have now through services such as Facebook, Instagram, Dropbox, etc, could have been built in a peer-to-peer way, on top of things like Peergos. I do not think that Peergos will necessarily be the exact technology that a new, decentralized version of internet technologies will be built on, but we are building the infrastructure and knowledge needed to be ready for power and economics shifts online.
ttul 7y ago
Didn't you watch Silicon Valley? It's the answer to Hooli's Box III.

Kemejii 7y ago

Amazing! How it works?

ianopolous 7y ago
There's a talk introducing the architecture here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54pShffxvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54pShffxvI TLDR: It's a cryptographic capability based global filesystem with a focus on privacy.

davidy123 7y ago

I tried to sign up, but just got `(TypeError) : Cannot read property 'dhtClient' of null` on submitting the form. Chrome 74 on Linux. All blockers off/tried in incognito.

ianopolous 7y ago
Thanks for letting us know. We've had 2 other reports of that error, but so far we haven't been able to reproduce it. We've tried chrome 74 on windows and 73 on Linux.
detritus 7y ago
Am getting the same on Firefox 66, Windows
ianopolous 7y ago
We think we've just figured out the cause, and deployed a fix. Are you able to sign up now? You may need to CTRL+F5 force refresh. Blockers shouldn't matter because we don't have any third party hosted content, not even fonts.
Y_Y 7y ago
I successfully signed up with FF67 on Linux just now.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

kitotik 7y ago

How does this compare to IPFS and the DAT project?

prophesi 7y ago
It seems like it uses IPFS under-the-hood. So they're essentially handling the end-to-end encryption aspect of it, so that those hosting it via IPFS can't see the data.
- ianopolous 7y ago
  Yes, we use IPFS as a datastore using their IPLD merkle tree data structure, and as a p2p networking stack. Disclaimer: I also work on IPFS
  - asdkhadsj 7y ago
    On that note, how does this differ from FileCoin? Is it basically a self-hosted NAS on top of IPFS?

fabrice_d 7y ago

In the https://peergos.org/features https://peergos.org/features page we can read: "Alternatively you can pay another provider to store your data (they won't be able to read your files). Currently, we have a small central server which stores usernames and public key" So IPFS is useful to eventually have your data copied to other nodes, but you need centralized servers for basically all reliable operations?

zaroth 7y ago
Or you need a Pi-like device on your network to act as your personal storage node. I think if you could plug in an old iPhone/Android and have it become your host I don’t see why that couldn’t be mainstream. Everyone (who would consider using this) has an old phone they can plug in and forget.
- fabrice_d 7y ago
  Plug and forget, and one day realize your data is lost? That's the thing I really can't wrap my mind around with these kind of solutions: how can they be advocated while not offering a good way to be reliable? That's doing a disservice to the other good parts like the better privacy.
  - basch 7y ago
    Thats almost how I feel about using raspberry pis as servers in general. Arent I better off with 1 computer, running the free Citrix Xen, that I can run ALL my servers on, instead of a closet full of raspberry pis to manage. Just because you can... Is this thing pronounced purge os? Even if its not supposed to be..
    - zaroth 7y ago
      Of course you can also do that, but right for now 99% of people “all the servers” are exactly 0 servers. Even the concept of a “server” is foreign. Maybe the first server most people buy is a home NAS or wireless gateway. Those types of devices should also be able to act as the host as long as they have pluggable storage.

marknadal 7y ago

Trying out the demo, got this warning: > I understand that passwords cannot be reset or recovered - if I forget my password, then I will lose access to my account and all my data Shame, cause P2P password resets are totally possible these days, see my tweets on this with Brendan Eich: https://twitter.com/marknadal/status/1131258225095991296 https://twitter.com/marknadal/status/1131258225095991296 Also, I just got: > Error: User already exists! How is this decentralized then? Unless it is using a blockchain to register usernames, then there has to be a master server that "decides" whose username is taken. Or worse: It is decentralized, but not offline-first (what happens if I register without internet access)? What is the point of being P2P/decentralized if I need to be connected to a peer? > Creating filesystem Is really slow! Is this IPFS? Small actions, like "send friend request" takes ~5seconds. Have you guys tried using something faster? There is a P2P version of Reddit ( https://notabug.io/ https://notabug.io/ ) and he's done a ton of optimizations to make things instant, probably require switching p2p protocols though. Overall, it worked! That is saying a lot in the blockchain/decentralized world. So this should actually be viewed as a huge success. Congrats!

iffycan 7y ago
Or use Shamir's Secret Sharing to split your key/password up between friends at the outset: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir%27s_Secret_Sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir%27s_Secret_Sharing
- marknadal 7y ago
  Great reference! Do you know of a WebCrypto based implementation of this? Or even libsodium? That has been my hold back.
ianopolous 7y ago
Hi Mark, Thanks for your feedback. We do hope to use shamir secret sharing among your friends to allow password recovery in the future, but that's strictly less secure (your friend's can collude against you) and would be optional. There is a centralised pki to ensure unique usernames (eventually it could be made into a blockchain - it's already an append only merkle-tree in ipfs, but this is an alpha). This is a UX tradeoff. Peergos is designed to be used by people who can use facebook - they should never need to see a hash or manage their keys. Once you have signed up and claimed your username you only need to interact with your storage node (and those of your friends for social stuff) unless you need to lookup a new friend who's recently signed up. Some things are slow yes, we have a lot of optimisation to do, but wanted to start getting feedback.

anigbrowl 7y ago

Another one? These are all subject to network effects. consider them contractions on the way to the birth of the successor to the web.

asdkhadsj 7y ago
> These are all subject to network effects. Can you describe in more detail the issue? Would love to hear critical thoughts on this project, as I'm interested, but wary.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  It's just the chicken-and-egg problem - how do you get enough people using it for it to be a real resource, vs another OK-but-not-outstanding platform that has a few dedicated users but too shallow a community? I'm a bit cranky about it because I have watched a bunch of projects like this bud and then fail to develop even though they were/all very worthy in their way.
  - asdkhadsj 7y ago
    Ah hah, appreciate the depth. I misunderstood your comment and thought you meant it was vulnerable to some type of network attack haha.

asdkhadsj 7y ago

Are binaries / programmatic access available? I've been writing a knowledge repository and was debating using IPFS to distribute encrypted files. However Peergos is interesting for the same reason. To toy around with the alpha I'd like to experiment with integrating the sharing model with my project.

ianopolous 7y ago
We are distributing releases through Peergos itself: https://alpha.peergos.net/public/peergos/releases https://alpha.peergos.net/public/peergos/releases The rest api is quite simple, and mostly a subset of the IPFS rest api. The complexity is mostly client side. We have a Java client, which we cross compile to JS for the browser. If you're mainly interested in the access control mechanism it is a simplification of cryptree: https://github.com/Peergos/Peergos/tree/master/papers https://github.com/Peergos/Peergos/tree/master/papers

davidcollantes 7y ago

Sign up is broken. It didn’t finished, but now shows user taken. Would love to try login in, but can’t find the login screen.

ianopolous 7y ago
The login url is https://alpha.peergos.net https://alpha.peergos.net