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It is crazy how much the quality of the camera's has changed. I haven't looked into DSLR camera's for a few years, since I have one and am not really in the mar

It is crazy how much the quality of the camera's has changed. I haven't looked into DSLR camera's for a few years, since I have one and am not really in the market for one now, but have there been similar advances in that tech? As in, ground breaking higher quality, more compact form factors, etc? You'd imagine if you can get this type of quality from a phone's camera, you'd be able to make truly amazing things happen with dedicated camera's.

threeseed 7y ago
There has but the pace is significantly slower. Fuji just announced the GFX100 which is a medium format camera in the same body as a Canon 1DS. And there are rumours they will allow for multi-capture i.e. 400MP image out of the 100MP sensor. But in the middle between something like that and your phone camera the market is surely going to decline.
bitL 7y ago
Low-light performance is now phenomenal due to better quantum efficiency as they are now using some older CPU manufacturing process tech, and small full-frame mirror-less cameras have almost perfect autofocus now.
- mosselman 7y ago
  Thanks. I might look into replacing my Nikon D5000 at some point. Low-light photography is one of the only things that I sometimes wish it could do better.
megaremote 7y ago
They are no longer R cameras. They have removed the mirror and gotten good results.
alkonaut 7y ago
The leap in recent years isn't really in sensor tech so much as in phone manufacturers racing to get the best cameras by increasing the sensor size. E.g. the iPhone5/6 had an image sensor around 15sq mm, and the iPhone XS has a 25sq mm one. This one is over 40sq mm (1/1.7"). The nokia 1020 has a 2/3" sensor (same as the larger compact cameras) which is 58sq mm(!). So while there is are small incremental improvements in sensor tech (quantum efficiency, etc), the big development in quality is pure physics. The phones takes as good pictures as compact digitals, because they are now using the same size tech. Also the picture quality isn't just dependent on the sensor. Better processors can help with autofocus, noise reduction etc, and that obviously helps the end result. This however will lead to a problem with physics: you can't grow much beyond where it is now, without making the phone much thicker to accomodate a bigger lens, at least not without using exotic thech such as diffractive optics etc. So don't expect the massive gains in image quality over the next 3 years, as in the past 3.
- mosselman 7y ago
  Thank you for the clarification. > Better processors can help with autofocus, noise reduction etc, and that obviously helps the end result. These processors could be put into bigger camera's too I imagine.
- usrusr 7y ago
  But building optics that can properly illuminate those larger sensors within the confines of current smartphone designs already is impressive progress. As you said, those physics are hard. I'm no expert but I suspect that the physics would even be strictly impossible for a "proper" lens and they only get away with it because they can now apply corrections computationally which would require lot's of glass/space when done to light pre-sensor instead of to data post-sensor. This, I think, is the actual innovation: when you don't have to care for distortion or uneven brightness because you can fix that digitally, basic sharpness becomes much easier to achieve. A truly raw sensor readout from those modules would probably look like worse than a Holga picture. I fully agree with your assessment that this is a one-time free lunch. Looking forward to a computational compact that scales the same lens simplifications to a full frame sensor!
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    Yes (more) computantional imaging is probably the next frontier. We already see the double and triple cameras (some times for depth info, some times for different FOV's) but I'm guessing N modules in some grid pattern + computation can emulate a much larger camera without making it much thicker like a single large sensor). I think I saw such a prototype if I remember correctly. If it works, it's also quite similar to that black hole imaging tech which is funny. I'd also be happy to get a phone with a detatchable camera module you could bring when you need it. So long as it's much smaller and cheaper than a camera, it would still be better than carrying a compact camera and a phone (which was the problem these good cameras solved in the first place).
    - bitL 7y ago
      > N modules in some grid pattern Nokia 9 is like that.
781 7y ago
Well, now you have cameras that can basically shoot in the dark, seeing stuff you can't with your own eyes - Sony A7S II
- Infinitesimus 7y ago
  If that;s from your experience, what lens are you paring it with? (A7 III owner here looking for shiny lens toys)
Yizahi 7y ago
I recently looked at 1" sensor compact cameras, including several generations back, since they are still sold today. Main improvements in the sensor was backside illumination (same as in phone sensors, maybe phones were earlier) and sensors with DRAM attached as a cache for those 4K @100500 FPS insane videos. And technically, just attaching DRAM doesn't mean that sensor itself has changed. You can see in the same model lineup how manufacturer puts same exact sensor for several generations in row, improving other stuff. I guess in general sensors are at a limit, unless some breakthrough will happen. Phones improved extremely fast recently but still small optics are dark and AF is usually not great.
bufferoverflow 7y ago
Yes, there have been massive changes in DSLR/mirrorless world. The main ones are: 1) Autofocus. Check out Sony A7 III or A9 reviews, it's absolutely mindblowing. It focuses perfectly and is insanely fast. 2) Low-light sensitivity. You can get a used Sony A7s, which goes to ISO 490,000, and quite usable up to ISO 50K. At its highest ISO and with a relatively cheap f1.4 lens it's much more sensitive than my eyes - it can see in the dark, it's like night vision, but in color. But that's what's available for purchase. Canon has demonstrated Canon ME20F-SH, which shoots up to ISO 4.5 million. Judging by the videos, it's absolutely nuts. I hope that tech becomes widely available soon. 3) The cost of RAW video cameras has plummeted. Blackmagic BMPCC 4K is $1300. Quite an amazing little camera that records straight to an external SSD via USB-C. This is cinema-level camera, though with quite weak ergonomics. Still, if you're serious about cinematography, it's an excellent choice, and it's very affordable. 4) Lenses keep improving as well. New 135mm/f1.8 is breaking MTF chart records, it outresolves all the sensors by a wide margin. 5) Medium-format digital cameras have become affordable as well.
- yread 7y ago
  > Canon ME20F-SH, which shoots up to ISO 4.5 million Video at 400k ISO 50fps: https://youtu.be/1-HfWCVQsIY?t=182 https://youtu.be/1-HfWCVQsIY?t=182 or Sony alpha A7S II - 4K low-light ISO comparison movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLBHMbRMW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLBHMbRMW4
- mosselman 7y ago
  Thanks, great run down. Bad for my wallet in the near to mid future, but great to see the things improve that have a great impact on the usability of a camera.

threeseed 7y ago

There has but the pace is significantly slower. Fuji just announced the GFX100 which is a medium format camera in the same body as a Canon 1DS. And there are rumours they will allow for multi-capture i.e. 400MP image out of the 100MP sensor. But in the middle between something like that and your phone camera the market is surely going to decline.

bitL 7y ago

Low-light performance is now phenomenal due to better quantum efficiency as they are now using some older CPU manufacturing process tech, and small full-frame mirror-less cameras have almost perfect autofocus now.

mosselman 7y ago
Thanks. I might look into replacing my Nikon D5000 at some point. Low-light photography is one of the only things that I sometimes wish it could do better.

megaremote 7y ago

They are no longer R cameras. They have removed the mirror and gotten good results.

alkonaut 7y ago

The leap in recent years isn't really in sensor tech so much as in phone manufacturers racing to get the best cameras by increasing the sensor size. E.g. the iPhone5/6 had an image sensor around 15sq mm, and the iPhone XS has a 25sq mm one. This one is over 40sq mm (1/1.7"). The nokia 1020 has a 2/3" sensor (same as the larger compact cameras) which is 58sq mm(!). So while there is are small incremental improvements in sensor tech (quantum efficiency, etc), the big development in quality is pure physics. The phones takes as good pictures as compact digitals, because they are now using the same size tech. Also the picture quality isn't just dependent on the sensor. Better processors can help with autofocus, noise reduction etc, and that obviously helps the end result. This however will lead to a problem with physics: you can't grow much beyond where it is now, without making the phone much thicker to accomodate a bigger lens, at least not without using exotic thech such as diffractive optics etc. So don't expect the massive gains in image quality over the next 3 years, as in the past 3.

mosselman 7y ago
Thank you for the clarification. > Better processors can help with autofocus, noise reduction etc, and that obviously helps the end result. These processors could be put into bigger camera's too I imagine.
usrusr 7y ago
But building optics that can properly illuminate those larger sensors within the confines of current smartphone designs already is impressive progress. As you said, those physics are hard. I'm no expert but I suspect that the physics would even be strictly impossible for a "proper" lens and they only get away with it because they can now apply corrections computationally which would require lot's of glass/space when done to light pre-sensor instead of to data post-sensor. This, I think, is the actual innovation: when you don't have to care for distortion or uneven brightness because you can fix that digitally, basic sharpness becomes much easier to achieve. A truly raw sensor readout from those modules would probably look like worse than a Holga picture. I fully agree with your assessment that this is a one-time free lunch. Looking forward to a computational compact that scales the same lens simplifications to a full frame sensor!
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Yes (more) computantional imaging is probably the next frontier. We already see the double and triple cameras (some times for depth info, some times for different FOV's) but I'm guessing N modules in some grid pattern + computation can emulate a much larger camera without making it much thicker like a single large sensor). I think I saw such a prototype if I remember correctly. If it works, it's also quite similar to that black hole imaging tech which is funny. I'd also be happy to get a phone with a detatchable camera module you could bring when you need it. So long as it's much smaller and cheaper than a camera, it would still be better than carrying a compact camera and a phone (which was the problem these good cameras solved in the first place).
  - bitL 7y ago
    > N modules in some grid pattern Nokia 9 is like that.

781 7y ago

Well, now you have cameras that can basically shoot in the dark, seeing stuff you can't with your own eyes - Sony A7S II

Infinitesimus 7y ago
If that;s from your experience, what lens are you paring it with? (A7 III owner here looking for shiny lens toys)

Yizahi 7y ago

I recently looked at 1" sensor compact cameras, including several generations back, since they are still sold today. Main improvements in the sensor was backside illumination (same as in phone sensors, maybe phones were earlier) and sensors with DRAM attached as a cache for those 4K @100500 FPS insane videos. And technically, just attaching DRAM doesn't mean that sensor itself has changed. You can see in the same model lineup how manufacturer puts same exact sensor for several generations in row, improving other stuff. I guess in general sensors are at a limit, unless some breakthrough will happen. Phones improved extremely fast recently but still small optics are dark and AF is usually not great.

bufferoverflow 7y ago

Yes, there have been massive changes in DSLR/mirrorless world. The main ones are: 1) Autofocus. Check out Sony A7 III or A9 reviews, it's absolutely mindblowing. It focuses perfectly and is insanely fast. 2) Low-light sensitivity. You can get a used Sony A7s, which goes to ISO 490,000, and quite usable up to ISO 50K. At its highest ISO and with a relatively cheap f1.4 lens it's much more sensitive than my eyes - it can see in the dark, it's like night vision, but in color. But that's what's available for purchase. Canon has demonstrated Canon ME20F-SH, which shoots up to ISO 4.5 million. Judging by the videos, it's absolutely nuts. I hope that tech becomes widely available soon. 3) The cost of RAW video cameras has plummeted. Blackmagic BMPCC 4K is $1300. Quite an amazing little camera that records straight to an external SSD via USB-C. This is cinema-level camera, though with quite weak ergonomics. Still, if you're serious about cinematography, it's an excellent choice, and it's very affordable. 4) Lenses keep improving as well. New 135mm/f1.8 is breaking MTF chart records, it outresolves all the sensors by a wide margin. 5) Medium-format digital cameras have become affordable as well.

yread 7y ago
> Canon ME20F-SH, which shoots up to ISO 4.5 million Video at 400k ISO 50fps: https://youtu.be/1-HfWCVQsIY?t=182 https://youtu.be/1-HfWCVQsIY?t=182 or Sony alpha A7S II - 4K low-light ISO comparison movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLBHMbRMW4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVLBHMbRMW4
mosselman 7y ago
Thanks, great run down. Bad for my wallet in the near to mid future, but great to see the things improve that have a great impact on the usability of a camera.