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Google has spent the last decade cutting apart the open part of Android and making it more and more proprietary. Launcher, Phone app, Messages, Contacts, Calen

Google has spent the last decade cutting apart the open part of Android and making it more and more proprietary. Launcher, Phone app, Messages, Contacts, Calendar. All proprietary. Notification API, Location API, SMS APIs and step counter APIs, and even the new app format. All proprietary. It's a huge undertaking building an app for Android today without using Google's services, and sometimes even impossible. If you want to verify a user by sending a code through SMS (think Whatsapp sign-up) you either have to use the proprietary API, or you'll be banned from the play store. Using the open source API instead gets you banned because it allows you to read all SMS — and Google never cared to build a new open source API because they already have their proprietary API anyway. And nowadays you don't have APKs anymore but often app bundles, a special format which only the Play Store can parse. And if you create a new app today, per default you don't even get the signing key to publish APKs yourself, but only Google gets to keep it.

rapsey 7y ago
> Google has spent the last decade cutting apart the open part of Android and making it more and more proprietary. Replacing those bits is still less work than writing your own entire OS. There are even open source projects to replace those bits.
- kuschku 7y ago
  Yes, microG exists and is amazing — but even it is only replacing an absolutely tiny part of the APIs, and even those it can’t replace fully yet and a lot of work is still to be done. I remember days when Android was still open, nowadays I’m fighting against the ever-increasing restrictions with my open source apps with every single OS update.
  - acct1771 7y ago
    No, no, no - GP isn't saying replace the bits that support the proprietary Google services. They're saying that there's easy and simple drop in replacements, app and service wise that can hook into better services/ones you host.
    - kuschku 7y ago
      There are? Now that’s interesting, because I’ve spent the past 5 years developing open source Android apps and such projects. (And e.g. my app Quasseldroid is also on F-Droid) I’d be interested in what existing, working solution for a FCM replacement there is? Replacing the apps is simple, replacing the services is the hard part. If there is a working open FCM alternative, please link it, I’d immediately add support for it in my apps.
- acct1771 7y ago
  If you're reading this, and would like to see a solid selection of these: www.F-Droid.org
0815test 7y ago
> It's a huge undertaking building an app for Android today without using Google's services, and sometimes even impossible. F-Droid developers manage to do it. Sure, they might not publish their apps on the Google-Play Store (some do, actually) but so what? Any Android user can freely download these entirely open apps and install them on their own, by pre-checking a box in the phone settings. That's still more than you can say about iOS!
- kuschku 7y ago
  I’m a publishing apps on F-Droid myself, so I’m speaking from experience there. Right now I’ve spent months on getting a full clean-room reversed version of Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging system’s client library working, and we’re still nowhere close to that. The final goal being that we can have one, fully GPL app, which can utilize FCM if it’s installed on the phone, either through the proprietary Google Play Services, or through microG, but which can also work without it otherwise (while also avoiding any tracking or telemetry) And trust me if I say Google’s making this for us devs harder with every update.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    > Right now I’ve spent months on getting a full clean-room reversed version of Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging system’s client library working Thank you for that.
  - m3adow 7y ago
    > Right now I’ve spent months on getting a full clean-room reversed version of Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging system’s client library working Thank you for that! I'm very sceptical of Googles "soft lock-in" and will switch to MicroG Lineage sooner or later. So every inch helps.
nashashmi 7y ago
So that is a great bait and catch strategy. Start open source and after market dominance move over to closed source. We need anti monopoly measures to prevent this kind of thing.
- 0815test 7y ago
  Huawei did the same thing. Started out with their phones being unlockable (not that it did much good, the hardware was hell to work with), then took that away. Even on existing hardware. That's when people in the consumer tech community figured out "okay, these clowns definitely can't be trusted". We didn't need Trump to tell us that!
moocowtruck 7y ago
so google is pretty much oracle?
- enriquto 7y ago
  > so google is pretty much oracle? No. They play an entirely different league of evil. Google is orders of magnitude more evil. Hint: it is very easy to live without oracle.
  - macintux 7y ago
    My only remaining dependency on Google is YouTube, and I could do without that in a pinch, although I’d definitely miss it.
    - acct1771 7y ago
      What's your gMaps replacement, if any, out of curiosity?
      - aerique 7y ago
        Not the parent poster but I use Here WeGo on Sailfish running on the Android subsystem. It's ok.
irq-1 7y ago
Phone companies tried to replace the open versions first. Google was faced with either: a different version of Android on each phone (with the apps replaced,) or making their own versions. Note too that they could have gone the Microsoft IE route and declared various apps as part of the OS. Instead they made their apps separate from Android, and let them succeed by bundling them together. Amazon Fire is at least one example where the Play Store et al. are not installed.
- kuschku 7y ago
  > different version of Android on each phone (with the apps replaced) No, their action actually lead to this in the first place — previously, each manufacturer slightly modified the AOSP apps, now each manufacturer actually builds their entirely custom apps for this purpose, as most can’t or don’t want to license Google’s apps for that purpose (they license the base Google Play apps, but e.g. not messages or the phone app or the launcher).
- jklinger410 7y ago
  >Fire is at least one example /thread To answer the big question in this thread. Yes, Huawei can simply fork Android. It will be a pain in the ass, expensive, and not as usable, but they certainly can. Google's "iron grip" in this instance is only ostensible, not literal and complete. HN is not immune to clickbait.
  - seniorivn 7y ago
    They kind of actually already did, like all the chinese companies. Because CCP banned google from chinese market years ago. Banning all CCP related corporations should have been implemented as a part of opening to china. or at least as an answer to CCP's censorship protectionism, etc.
rchaud 7y ago
> If you want to verify a user by sending a code through SMS[..]you either have to use the proprietary API, or you'll be banned from the play store. Is this only in cases where the app reads the SMS as soon as it's received, and authorizes the user without any further user input? Because I've done similar authentication stuff for some website logins (like a real estate listings one) where they require me to punch in the code I received via SMS. This was an interaction that occurred independently of Play Services I would imagine.
derefr 7y ago
So, that “huge undertaking” is exactly what LineageOS is, isn’t it? So couldn’t Huawei fork that?
ttflee 7y ago
All 'Android' phones sold in China did not rely a tiny bit of those Google stuff, as Google's existence in China has been negligible since it was blocked. All major 'Android' manufacturers in China somewhat customized launchers with unique UXs. Notification services were always chaotic and every platform provider woke the phone up to checkout pending notifications and drained the battery. And this list of abyss easily expanded to App Markets and other features. So blocking Huawei from Android might create some troubles but it would definitely not be around these proprietary features where other proprietary counterparts existed, at least in China, Huawei's home market.

rapsey 7y ago

> Google has spent the last decade cutting apart the open part of Android and making it more and more proprietary. Replacing those bits is still less work than writing your own entire OS. There are even open source projects to replace those bits.

kuschku 7y ago
Yes, microG exists and is amazing — but even it is only replacing an absolutely tiny part of the APIs, and even those it can’t replace fully yet and a lot of work is still to be done. I remember days when Android was still open, nowadays I’m fighting against the ever-increasing restrictions with my open source apps with every single OS update.
- acct1771 7y ago
  No, no, no - GP isn't saying replace the bits that support the proprietary Google services. They're saying that there's easy and simple drop in replacements, app and service wise that can hook into better services/ones you host.
  - kuschku 7y ago
    There are? Now that’s interesting, because I’ve spent the past 5 years developing open source Android apps and such projects. (And e.g. my app Quasseldroid is also on F-Droid) I’d be interested in what existing, working solution for a FCM replacement there is? Replacing the apps is simple, replacing the services is the hard part. If there is a working open FCM alternative, please link it, I’d immediately add support for it in my apps.
acct1771 7y ago
If you're reading this, and would like to see a solid selection of these: www.F-Droid.org

0815test 7y ago

> It's a huge undertaking building an app for Android today without using Google's services, and sometimes even impossible. F-Droid developers manage to do it. Sure, they might not publish their apps on the Google-Play Store (some do, actually) but so what? Any Android user can freely download these entirely open apps and install them on their own, by pre-checking a box in the phone settings. That's still more than you can say about iOS!

kuschku 7y ago
I’m a publishing apps on F-Droid myself, so I’m speaking from experience there. Right now I’ve spent months on getting a full clean-room reversed version of Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging system’s client library working, and we’re still nowhere close to that. The final goal being that we can have one, fully GPL app, which can utilize FCM if it’s installed on the phone, either through the proprietary Google Play Services, or through microG, but which can also work without it otherwise (while also avoiding any tracking or telemetry) And trust me if I say Google’s making this for us devs harder with every update.
- anoncake 7y ago
  > Right now I’ve spent months on getting a full clean-room reversed version of Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging system’s client library working Thank you for that.
- m3adow 7y ago
  > Right now I’ve spent months on getting a full clean-room reversed version of Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging system’s client library working Thank you for that! I'm very sceptical of Googles "soft lock-in" and will switch to MicroG Lineage sooner or later. So every inch helps.

nashashmi 7y ago

So that is a great bait and catch strategy. Start open source and after market dominance move over to closed source. We need anti monopoly measures to prevent this kind of thing.

0815test 7y ago
Huawei did the same thing. Started out with their phones being unlockable (not that it did much good, the hardware was hell to work with), then took that away. Even on existing hardware. That's when people in the consumer tech community figured out "okay, these clowns definitely can't be trusted". We didn't need Trump to tell us that!

moocowtruck 7y ago

so google is pretty much oracle?

enriquto 7y ago
> so google is pretty much oracle? No. They play an entirely different league of evil. Google is orders of magnitude more evil. Hint: it is very easy to live without oracle.
- macintux 7y ago
  My only remaining dependency on Google is YouTube, and I could do without that in a pinch, although I’d definitely miss it.
  - acct1771 7y ago
    What's your gMaps replacement, if any, out of curiosity?
    - aerique 7y ago
      Not the parent poster but I use Here WeGo on Sailfish running on the Android subsystem. It's ok.

irq-1 7y ago

Phone companies tried to replace the open versions first. Google was faced with either: a different version of Android on each phone (with the apps replaced,) or making their own versions. Note too that they could have gone the Microsoft IE route and declared various apps as part of the OS. Instead they made their apps separate from Android, and let them succeed by bundling them together. Amazon Fire is at least one example where the Play Store et al. are not installed.

kuschku 7y ago
> different version of Android on each phone (with the apps replaced) No, their action actually lead to this in the first place — previously, each manufacturer slightly modified the AOSP apps, now each manufacturer actually builds their entirely custom apps for this purpose, as most can’t or don’t want to license Google’s apps for that purpose (they license the base Google Play apps, but e.g. not messages or the phone app or the launcher).
jklinger410 7y ago
>Fire is at least one example /thread To answer the big question in this thread. Yes, Huawei can simply fork Android. It will be a pain in the ass, expensive, and not as usable, but they certainly can. Google's "iron grip" in this instance is only ostensible, not literal and complete. HN is not immune to clickbait.
- seniorivn 7y ago
  They kind of actually already did, like all the chinese companies. Because CCP banned google from chinese market years ago. Banning all CCP related corporations should have been implemented as a part of opening to china. or at least as an answer to CCP's censorship protectionism, etc.

rchaud 7y ago

> If you want to verify a user by sending a code through SMS[..]you either have to use the proprietary API, or you'll be banned from the play store. Is this only in cases where the app reads the SMS as soon as it's received, and authorizes the user without any further user input? Because I've done similar authentication stuff for some website logins (like a real estate listings one) where they require me to punch in the code I received via SMS. This was an interaction that occurred independently of Play Services I would imagine.

derefr 7y ago

So, that “huge undertaking” is exactly what LineageOS is, isn’t it? So couldn’t Huawei fork that?

ttflee 7y ago

All 'Android' phones sold in China did not rely a tiny bit of those Google stuff, as Google's existence in China has been negligible since it was blocked. All major 'Android' manufacturers in China somewhat customized launchers with unique UXs. Notification services were always chaotic and every platform provider woke the phone up to checkout pending notifications and drained the battery. And this list of abyss easily expanded to App Markets and other features. So blocking Huawei from Android might create some troubles but it would definitely not be around these proprietary features where other proprietary counterparts existed, at least in China, Huawei's home market.