4 ms·

I'm sure that Spain would vote against the UK irrespective of Brexit. If you have some territory illegally occupied by the British in your very country, it's ob

I'm sure that Spain would vote against the UK irrespective of Brexit. If you have some territory illegally occupied by the British in your very country, it's obvious that you are going to vote against the British occupying territory elsewhere. It's coherent with Spanish foreign policy for many decades, from far before Brexit was even a talking point. I haven't noticed any will of the Spanish government to punish the UK for Brexit. That might be an opinion of laypeople, but not of the government as far as I know. In fact, I think Spain was the first country to sign an agreement so that the British can keep entering the country without a visa after Brexit, as long as there is reciprocity.

narag 7y ago
There's an obvious reason for that. Many Spaniards from the nearby towns work in Gibraltar. I can't talk for everyone here, but most people I know couldn't care less about sovereignty. The huge problem with Gibraltar is smuggling and money laundering. Edit: also, there's a common belief that we haven't pressured about the Gibraltar status because it could trigger that Morocco will do the same with Ceuta and Melilla. I can't really know, but it's really strange that after twenty years in the EU nothing has changed.
- isostatic 7y ago
  It's very simple, for Gibraltar, for Falklands, for Pitcairn, etc. It's Self Determination. In Gibraltar and Falklands the people living there have families stretching back centuries (over 300 years in Gibraltar's case, 150 in Falklands). Nobody is telling these people they can't become independent, or join another country. They quite simply don't want to. When things are close in opion, like Scotland and Northern Ireland, then things are more delicate -- you can't please everyone, so you have to do what's the least danger. In 2013, 92% of the Falklands voted, and 99.8% of those that voted, voted to stay British. In 2002, 88% of Gibraltar voted, and 99% voted to stay British.
  - narag 7y ago
    The real question is why. First, consider that nobody can be deprived of their nationality. They would still be UK citizens no matter what country owns the place. Now Gibraltar lives mostly on smuggling and money laundering, with a little tourism and the military. The military facilities are no longer very useful for the British. So what would they do there? There are more companies than inhabitants. Once the tax haven status disappears, all this income goes elsewhere. No more turning a blind eye for smuggling. Real state would suffer a big hit too. No wonder they want their town to stay British. But they don't have a say really. Not because we say so, but the UK government. Taking that kind of referenda seriously would be so silly as voting if... oh, wait!
arethuza 7y ago
That would perhaps be a bit hypocritical of Spain given their own enclaves like Melilla and Ceuta in Morocco - both of which are claimed by Morocco?
- narag 7y ago
  There are subtle differences. Gibraltar was Spanish before The Utrech Treaty, that even included some expiration date IIRC. Ceuta and Melilla were Spanish towns before Morocco even existed. Not that it will matter in the long run...
  - Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
    Apart from the expiration date issue, the British unilaterally extended their territory taking more land than they were assigned by the Utrecht treaty, several times. Sometimes using such scummy techniques as asking the Spanish government for permission to temporarily built sick houses outside their border during a cholera outbreak, and when the outbreak was over... they just kept that territory. To be honest, I'm not a patriot by any means and I do think that Ceuta and Melilla will probably need to be handed to Morocco at some point, as enclaves in general don't make much sense. But the situation is not even remotely comparable from a legal and historical standpoint. I don't think the differences can even be called "subtle".
  - robin_reala 7y ago
    I’m not sure there is an expiration date. Wikipedia (so pinch of salt) has the text as reading that Spain ceded to Great Britain: “the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging ... for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.”
    - narag 7y ago
      That's right, I got confused with something else.
dogma1138 7y ago
Gibraltar isn’t illegally occupied, that said Spain has always been stuck between a rock and a hard place since they have their own walled off enclaves in Morocco and they also have problems with independence movements internally with both Catalonia and the Basques claiming independence to various degree. This is why regardless of how much Spain wants to push the UK to secede Gibraltar they can’t push too hard. The Netherlands have the same problem they also have remote territories under their control so again they can only abstain.

narag 7y ago

There's an obvious reason for that. Many Spaniards from the nearby towns work in Gibraltar. I can't talk for everyone here, but most people I know couldn't care less about sovereignty. The huge problem with Gibraltar is smuggling and money laundering. Edit: also, there's a common belief that we haven't pressured about the Gibraltar status because it could trigger that Morocco will do the same with Ceuta and Melilla. I can't really know, but it's really strange that after twenty years in the EU nothing has changed.

isostatic 7y ago
It's very simple, for Gibraltar, for Falklands, for Pitcairn, etc. It's Self Determination. In Gibraltar and Falklands the people living there have families stretching back centuries (over 300 years in Gibraltar's case, 150 in Falklands). Nobody is telling these people they can't become independent, or join another country. They quite simply don't want to. When things are close in opion, like Scotland and Northern Ireland, then things are more delicate -- you can't please everyone, so you have to do what's the least danger. In 2013, 92% of the Falklands voted, and 99.8% of those that voted, voted to stay British. In 2002, 88% of Gibraltar voted, and 99% voted to stay British.
- narag 7y ago
  The real question is why. First, consider that nobody can be deprived of their nationality. They would still be UK citizens no matter what country owns the place. Now Gibraltar lives mostly on smuggling and money laundering, with a little tourism and the military. The military facilities are no longer very useful for the British. So what would they do there? There are more companies than inhabitants. Once the tax haven status disappears, all this income goes elsewhere. No more turning a blind eye for smuggling. Real state would suffer a big hit too. No wonder they want their town to stay British. But they don't have a say really. Not because we say so, but the UK government. Taking that kind of referenda seriously would be so silly as voting if... oh, wait!

arethuza 7y ago

That would perhaps be a bit hypocritical of Spain given their own enclaves like Melilla and Ceuta in Morocco - both of which are claimed by Morocco?

narag 7y ago
There are subtle differences. Gibraltar was Spanish before The Utrech Treaty, that even included some expiration date IIRC. Ceuta and Melilla were Spanish towns before Morocco even existed. Not that it will matter in the long run...
- Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
  Apart from the expiration date issue, the British unilaterally extended their territory taking more land than they were assigned by the Utrecht treaty, several times. Sometimes using such scummy techniques as asking the Spanish government for permission to temporarily built sick houses outside their border during a cholera outbreak, and when the outbreak was over... they just kept that territory. To be honest, I'm not a patriot by any means and I do think that Ceuta and Melilla will probably need to be handed to Morocco at some point, as enclaves in general don't make much sense. But the situation is not even remotely comparable from a legal and historical standpoint. I don't think the differences can even be called "subtle".
- robin_reala 7y ago
  I’m not sure there is an expiration date. Wikipedia (so pinch of salt) has the text as reading that Spain ceded to Great Britain: “the full and entire propriety of the town and castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging ... for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.”
  - narag 7y ago
    That's right, I got confused with something else.

dogma1138 7y ago

Gibraltar isn’t illegally occupied, that said Spain has always been stuck between a rock and a hard place since they have their own walled off enclaves in Morocco and they also have problems with independence movements internally with both Catalonia and the Basques claiming independence to various degree. This is why regardless of how much Spain wants to push the UK to secede Gibraltar they can’t push too hard. The Netherlands have the same problem they also have remote territories under their control so again they can only abstain.