7 ms·

In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house, make fri

In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house, make friends, etc. It is a process of detribalization, that can help you understand better who you are, what part of you is just an artifact of the culture you were brought up in, which parts you like to keep and which parts you would like to revise. Not less importantly, it gives you empathy for "the other". It makes you understand how similar we all are at the core and, paradoxically, how diverse our behaviors and viewpoints can be. And it makes it harder and harder to believe that you, specifically, were born in the place with the correct behaviors and the correct viewpoint. Tourism is a farce. I guess it gives you the social status points of going through a challenge, without actually facing any difficulties or learning anything. You can have your photo in front of the Eiffel Tower, or that cute Buddhist Temple, or whatever. Maybe use that super expensive camera you bought as a toy (god forbid you use it to do something different, something that hasn't been done before by one million people just that week). Tourism itself is a paradox: its gaze destroys the very thing it wants to look at. The Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days, Montmartre or otherwise. Punk Rock in London? Only if you have a banking job on the side... The old ladies who sang fado from windows in old Lisbon neighborhoods had to move to the suburbs, because Madonna arrived with her entourage and every rich kid wants a piece of that "genuine" action on their Instragram. Be a traveler, not a tourist!

kortilla 7y ago
You can do that by moving any distance that forces you to recreate your social circle (i.e. even 100 miles). You don’t need a language barrier and a currency barrier to force you to reflect. You just need to leave your echo chamber.
- TelmoMenezes 7y ago
  Echo chambers are like Russian Dolls. Maybe you are satisfied with just opening the first one. It's up to you, no right answers! But it is definitely not the same to move to another city in your own country or go somewhere else where social norms and language are fundamentally different.
dagw 7y ago
Be a traveler, not a tourist! When you do it it's "tourism" when I do it it's "travelling". When you're visiting a place for a shorter period of time primarily for leisure, you're a tourist. Sure you can tourist in more or less intrusive ways, but just accept the label and move on. the Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days... None of which has anything to do with tourism.
- tim333 7y ago
  It's more down to what you do than if it's me or them. Doing stuff the locals do is not tourist. Queueing to take photos of the changing of the guard or that kind of stuff is touristy.
  - notahacker 7y ago
    It has to be said that visiting tourist attractions often has much to recommend it over "doing stuff the locals do", which often entails pretty mundane experiences like going to the mall and eating at McDonalds...
    - zerocool4 7y ago
      Well, interesting note, because on the last trip in Sri Lanks I was in just another Buddhist temple, and I remember almost nothing of it. But then I was eating in a McDonalds nearby, and it was a really interesting. They had totally different menu and tastes, chairs and tables, peoples and ads, also no WC so I found it only at horse race track nearby. Not a mundane experience in any way. Churches, temples and mountain views are all the same after a while. Small details in everyday people's life always different and makes yourself to take a fresh look at your daily life.
    - dagw 7y ago
      As much as I enjoy seeing local 'must-see' sights of a place, I have to admit that seeing what a local mall and grocery store looks like is every bit as interesting.
  - 7y ago
titzer 7y ago
Upvoted. But, > Be a traveler, not a tourist! Please don't make this worse by putting this idea into more heads. Personally I read up on the most popular TV shows and advise everyone to just stay home while I go do (something else).
pmlnr 7y ago
> Be a traveler, not a tourist! Please, please, please don't use this phrase. I don't want to be an instagram fueled "traveler" who ends up begging[^1]. [^1]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Western-backpackers-begging-fund-trip.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Wester...
- blahedo 7y ago
  How odd. Nearly all of those pictures are not of begging, but rather of busking. Which you may also find distasteful but it's a completely different thing.
  - pmlnr 7y ago
    "I'm traveling around asia without money please support my trip" - how is this not begging? Also: begging, busking, in this context, no difference. If you want to travel, have the funds. Why on Earth would I support someone else's trip when I could save that money for my own?!
    - ForHackernews 7y ago
      Busking is playing music for money on the street. Maybe you don't like it, but it's not exactly begging. In other contexts, I assume you're happy to pay to hear live music performed.
  - cjhopman 7y ago
    > Nearly all of those pictures are not of begging, but rather of busking. Of the ten pictures, five of them were busking (and of the five, two to three were pretty damn half-assed).
CPLX 7y ago
This is bullshit. What destroys the punk rock scene somewhere is the fact that punk was a function of a particular place and time, and every generation throws its own heroes up the pop charts. What is destroying the ability of kids to live in London and Paris is a lot more complex, but has a lot more to do with plutocracy and the rise of moneyed anti democratic forces than tourism. And as every aging punk rocker knows, the Ramones were from Queens.
adriand 7y ago
I understand this perspective but I feel like it's unnecessarily negative. I certainly agree with you that living in another country would be a unique and mind-expanding experience, but not everyone has this opportunity (or takes it when it is possible). When I was unencumbered by a family 20 years ago, traveling simply wasn't a priority for me. My focus was on getting by and trying to get a foothold in the tech industry. Now that I've got two kids and a high-pressure job, tourism is how I expose myself and my kids to other cultures and experiences. It is possible to do it right by keeping an open mind and not being "those people". I'll relate one anecdote. A couple of years ago we went to Panama and stayed in Panama City for a week before heading to the coast. While in the city we read about Amazon jungle tours. Not wanting to end up on a bus with a bunch of people, one night I headed out to a nearby square and started chatting up people with the limited but decent Spanish I've managed to learn over the past few years. I met a friendly restauranteur, explained that we wanted to head up to the jungle, and asked if he knew anyone who could take us. Next morning we all crammed into a pickup truck driven by an incredibly vivacious and chatty Panamanian woman (the restauranteur's cousin) and roared off to the jungle. The trip included memorable moments such as the part where a long, remote bridge was shut down to car traffic, forcing us to leave the truck by the side of the road and hike across in brutal heat. On arriving at the other side, seeing how exhausted my kids were, she told us to wait under a tree and took off. Twenty minutes later she rolled up in a minivan, which she had borrowed from a fellow Panamanian (a total stranger) who had agreed to lend it to us, free of charge, for the afternoon. She explained that she had a guardian angel that helped her arrange such things. We were tourists, 100%. But my whole family learned a lot from the experience.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
distant_hat 7y ago
That's an incredibly first world look at the world. If you are, say, from India, any kind of foreign travel involves visa hurdles, questions regarding your exact itinerary and purpose and who you will meet. Any longer than touristy stays will be looked at with extreme suspicion. Working is completely out of the question the vast majority of the times.
- uwagan 7y ago
  he talks to the first world. we from the 3rd world thought we were included too.
badpun 7y ago
> In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house, make friends, etc. It is a process of detribalization, that can help you understand better who you are, what part of you is just an artifact of the culture you were brought up in, which parts you like to keep and which parts you would like to revise. I did that, and it didn't "enlighten" me much. I think it may be because I was already very aware, thanks to Internet and the media industry, of an American culture, which is very different from my own, so I already had a good basis for comparison. > Tourism is a farce. I guess it gives you the social status points of going through a challenge, without actually facing any difficulties or learning anything. I never do tourism stuff (not out of snobbishness, I am just not that interested), but my aunt does, and to her, it's just a best use of her 10 days a year of vacation that she gets. She's working 6 days a week for less than a minimum wage, so the last thing she wants is a "challenge" really - I'm impressed that she does not go get lay on a beach somewhere and just regenerate, but prefers being bussed around Europe. > Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days, Montmartre or otherwise. Why is it important for painters to live in Paris? You can paint anywhere and there's plenty of affordable places in the world.
deleted 7y ago
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lagadu 7y ago
This is gatekeeping and bullshit one at that. I travel because it's an activity that I find enjoyable, just like I find many others. That's all the justification anyone ever needs. In comparison, I also move to a new country every ~2.5 years on average because I get bored of the place I live in after a while, and that does nothing to reduce the enjoyment I get from traveling to new places.
LaGrange 7y ago
> Be a traveler, not a tourist! The way you describe "traveling" is actually tourism, just long-form. Read a book if you need to "expand your horizon," or I don't know, follow someone on Twitter. Like, do you think wealthy expats aren't part of the issue? Sure, AirBnB has accelerated the process, but expat-driven price inflation and gentrification were displacing poor people for years before AirBnB exploded.
deleted 7y ago
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nojvek 7y ago
“Be a traveler, not a tourist”. Such wise words. Gonna slowly sip this in for the rest of the day.
blub 7y ago
The problem's not traveling or tourism per se, but rather the huge amounts of people doing these activities. It would be great for many locations if half of the visitors would simply stay at home.

kortilla 7y ago

You can do that by moving any distance that forces you to recreate your social circle (i.e. even 100 miles). You don’t need a language barrier and a currency barrier to force you to reflect. You just need to leave your echo chamber.

TelmoMenezes 7y ago
Echo chambers are like Russian Dolls. Maybe you are satisfied with just opening the first one. It's up to you, no right answers! But it is definitely not the same to move to another city in your own country or go somewhere else where social norms and language are fundamentally different.

dagw 7y ago

Be a traveler, not a tourist! When you do it it's "tourism" when I do it it's "travelling". When you're visiting a place for a shorter period of time primarily for leisure, you're a tourist. Sure you can tourist in more or less intrusive ways, but just accept the label and move on. the Ramones could no longer rent an apartment in Brooklyn. Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days... None of which has anything to do with tourism.

tim333 7y ago
It's more down to what you do than if it's me or them. Doing stuff the locals do is not tourist. Queueing to take photos of the changing of the guard or that kind of stuff is touristy.
- notahacker 7y ago
  It has to be said that visiting tourist attractions often has much to recommend it over "doing stuff the locals do", which often entails pretty mundane experiences like going to the mall and eating at McDonalds...
  - zerocool4 7y ago
    Well, interesting note, because on the last trip in Sri Lanks I was in just another Buddhist temple, and I remember almost nothing of it. But then I was eating in a McDonalds nearby, and it was a really interesting. They had totally different menu and tastes, chairs and tables, peoples and ads, also no WC so I found it only at horse race track nearby. Not a mundane experience in any way. Churches, temples and mountain views are all the same after a while. Small details in everyday people's life always different and makes yourself to take a fresh look at your daily life.
  - dagw 7y ago
    As much as I enjoy seeing local 'must-see' sights of a place, I have to admit that seeing what a local mall and grocery store looks like is every bit as interesting.
- 7y ago

titzer 7y ago

Upvoted. But, > Be a traveler, not a tourist! Please don't make this worse by putting this idea into more heads. Personally I read up on the most popular TV shows and advise everyone to just stay home while I go do (something else).

pmlnr 7y ago

> Be a traveler, not a tourist! Please, please, please don't use this phrase. I don't want to be an instagram fueled "traveler" who ends up begging[^1]. [^1]: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Western-backpackers-begging-fund-trip.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4400790/Rise-Wester...

blahedo 7y ago
How odd. Nearly all of those pictures are not of begging, but rather of busking. Which you may also find distasteful but it's a completely different thing.
- pmlnr 7y ago
  "I'm traveling around asia without money please support my trip" - how is this not begging? Also: begging, busking, in this context, no difference. If you want to travel, have the funds. Why on Earth would I support someone else's trip when I could save that money for my own?!
  - ForHackernews 7y ago
    Busking is playing music for money on the street. Maybe you don't like it, but it's not exactly begging. In other contexts, I assume you're happy to pay to hear live music performed.
- cjhopman 7y ago
  > Nearly all of those pictures are not of begging, but rather of busking. Of the ten pictures, five of them were busking (and of the five, two to three were pretty damn half-assed).

CPLX 7y ago

This is bullshit. What destroys the punk rock scene somewhere is the fact that punk was a function of a particular place and time, and every generation throws its own heroes up the pop charts. What is destroying the ability of kids to live in London and Paris is a lot more complex, but has a lot more to do with plutocracy and the rise of moneyed anti democratic forces than tourism. And as every aging punk rocker knows, the Ramones were from Queens.

adriand 7y ago

I understand this perspective but I feel like it's unnecessarily negative. I certainly agree with you that living in another country would be a unique and mind-expanding experience, but not everyone has this opportunity (or takes it when it is possible). When I was unencumbered by a family 20 years ago, traveling simply wasn't a priority for me. My focus was on getting by and trying to get a foothold in the tech industry. Now that I've got two kids and a high-pressure job, tourism is how I expose myself and my kids to other cultures and experiences. It is possible to do it right by keeping an open mind and not being "those people". I'll relate one anecdote. A couple of years ago we went to Panama and stayed in Panama City for a week before heading to the coast. While in the city we read about Amazon jungle tours. Not wanting to end up on a bus with a bunch of people, one night I headed out to a nearby square and started chatting up people with the limited but decent Spanish I've managed to learn over the past few years. I met a friendly restauranteur, explained that we wanted to head up to the jungle, and asked if he knew anyone who could take us. Next morning we all crammed into a pickup truck driven by an incredibly vivacious and chatty Panamanian woman (the restauranteur's cousin) and roared off to the jungle. The trip included memorable moments such as the part where a long, remote bridge was shut down to car traffic, forcing us to leave the truck by the side of the road and hike across in brutal heat. On arriving at the other side, seeing how exhausted my kids were, she told us to wait under a tree and took off. Twenty minutes later she rolled up in a minivan, which she had borrowed from a fellow Panamanian (a total stranger) who had agreed to lend it to us, free of charge, for the afternoon. She explained that she had a guardian angel that helped her arrange such things. We were tourists, 100%. But my whole family learned a lot from the experience.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

distant_hat 7y ago

That's an incredibly first world look at the world. If you are, say, from India, any kind of foreign travel involves visa hurdles, questions regarding your exact itinerary and purpose and who you will meet. Any longer than touristy stays will be looked at with extreme suspicion. Working is completely out of the question the vast majority of the times.

uwagan 7y ago
he talks to the first world. we from the 3rd world thought we were included too.

badpun 7y ago

> In my experience, it is incredibly mind-expanding to live for some time in another country (or countries). Really live there, have a job, rent a house, make friends, etc. It is a process of detribalization, that can help you understand better who you are, what part of you is just an artifact of the culture you were brought up in, which parts you like to keep and which parts you would like to revise. I did that, and it didn't "enlighten" me much. I think it may be because I was already very aware, thanks to Internet and the media industry, of an American culture, which is very different from my own, so I already had a good basis for comparison. > Tourism is a farce. I guess it gives you the social status points of going through a challenge, without actually facing any difficulties or learning anything. I never do tourism stuff (not out of snobbishness, I am just not that interested), but my aunt does, and to her, it's just a best use of her 10 days a year of vacation that she gets. She's working 6 days a week for less than a minimum wage, so the last thing she wants is a "challenge" really - I'm impressed that she does not go get lay on a beach somewhere and just regenerate, but prefers being bussed around Europe. > Struggling painters could most certainly not afford to live in Paris these days, Montmartre or otherwise. Why is it important for painters to live in Paris? You can paint anywhere and there's plenty of affordable places in the world.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

lagadu 7y ago

This is gatekeeping and bullshit one at that. I travel because it's an activity that I find enjoyable, just like I find many others. That's all the justification anyone ever needs. In comparison, I also move to a new country every ~2.5 years on average because I get bored of the place I live in after a while, and that does nothing to reduce the enjoyment I get from traveling to new places.

LaGrange 7y ago

> Be a traveler, not a tourist! The way you describe "traveling" is actually tourism, just long-form. Read a book if you need to "expand your horizon," or I don't know, follow someone on Twitter. Like, do you think wealthy expats aren't part of the issue? Sure, AirBnB has accelerated the process, but expat-driven price inflation and gentrification were displacing poor people for years before AirBnB exploded.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

nojvek 7y ago

“Be a traveler, not a tourist”. Such wise words. Gonna slowly sip this in for the rest of the day.

blub 7y ago

The problem's not traveling or tourism per se, but rather the huge amounts of people doing these activities. It would be great for many locations if half of the visitors would simply stay at home.