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I am not really interested in politics, but I am curious why countries abstain. They surely have an opinion; my countries (born in NL, live in ES) had NL abstai

I am not really interested in politics, but I am curious why countries abstain. They surely have an opinion; my countries (born in NL, live in ES) had NL abstain and ES vote against the UK. Now I can understand why Spain voted; a lot of people are of the opinion that UK left EU and they should suffer a lot for it. It's a underbelly thing but it's quite accepted here. They want Gibraltar and they want to see them (UK) suffer for what they messed up (opinions vary but even my most angry brexit voting friends of mine would not do that in a re-vote). That the Netherlands didn't vote is also not a surprise; our gov has no backbone (see MH shoot down/Russia/Olympics crap; same jellyfish still is the boss; he is smart but people want to see a lot more action, not just moving with the tides) and just tries to be everyone's friend. But France & Germany? That must be political but why? Is that because ties to UK/US or ?

cs02rm0 7y ago
opinions vary but even my most angry brexit voting friends of mine would not do that in a re-vote EU election polling may suggest otherwise. There's something slightly weird in UK politics where the media predominantly takes one side of a debate and then it seems to become socially unacceptable to be on the other side. The brand new Brexit Party look to be getting double the vote of any other party, yet other than of parents and in laws no one I know has offered up that they were on the leave side. Yet I could name maybe 100 people who have talked about being on the remain side. I've been brought up not to talk openly about politics anyway, but it seems a shame to me that there's a relatively silent majority. Anyway, fully agree with your post otherwise. It looks worse than Eurovision!
pc2g4d 7y ago
I think it's multiple things. First, they don't want to piss off their allies, the UK and US, by voting against UK occupation. Second, they may themselves have similar territorial arrangements and are concerned that this sets a precedent for use of the International Court of Justice to delegitimize such possessions.
Leherenn 7y ago
France has a few territories in a rather similar situation, and possibly the Netherlands as well. They probably don't want to anger the UK because they might need their support in the future if the same kind of vote happens to them, but at the same time, if they support the UK, a lot of countries will remember it and it could swing the vote against them. At this point the best game is not to play. For Germany, I do not know as they do not have overseas territories as far as I know. However, they are pretty keen on the UK staying in the EU, so that might be the reason.
- Loic 7y ago
  For France, it is even more sensitive as we are in the process of giving some of these territories more rights or simply full independence. This is a long and painful process for all the involved parties anyway because you dig again in the past often violent history of the territories.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    Evil of the past should never be ignored. No point of overthinking and being too emotional about it, but there are good lessons to be learned there
toyg 7y ago
UN votes like these are a function of timing as much as of the actual content. Delegations trade votes to gain support in this or that ongoing issue, at the UN and elsewhere. It just so happens that 1) the UK, thanks to Brexit, has basically lost all influence it had on other EU countries. EU members are more interested in gathering support on key votes in Bruxelles and Strasbourg; but the UK now cannot “trade” anything of that sort. 2) Again because of more and more stuff being cleared at EU level, the US has less and less to “sell” to individual member states. This goes double when the current administration is unabashedly isolationist, protectionist, and downright warmongering on trade issues, giving a first-line position to the likes of John Bolton who actively despise the UN and everything it stands for. UK and US are currently isolated at the diplomatic level in ways unseen since WWII. The best they can expect from European countries, even when they share actual interests (like on decolonisation) is the occasional abstention. I expect we will see more and more similar votes coming to pass, in the next two years.
Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago
I'm sure that Spain would vote against the UK irrespective of Brexit. If you have some territory illegally occupied by the British in your very country, it's obvious that you are going to vote against the British occupying territory elsewhere. It's coherent with Spanish foreign policy for many decades, from far before Brexit was even a talking point. I haven't noticed any will of the Spanish government to punish the UK for Brexit. That might be an opinion of laypeople, but not of the government as far as I know. In fact, I think Spain was the first country to sign an agreement so that the British can keep entering the country without a visa after Brexit, as long as there is reciprocity.
- narag 7y ago
  There's an obvious reason for that. Many Spaniards from the nearby towns work in Gibraltar. I can't talk for everyone here, but most people I know couldn't care less about sovereignty. The huge problem with Gibraltar is smuggling and money laundering. Edit: also, there's a common belief that we haven't pressured about the Gibraltar status because it could trigger that Morocco will do the same with Ceuta and Melilla. I can't really know, but it's really strange that after twenty years in the EU nothing has changed.
  - isostatic 7y ago
    It's very simple, for Gibraltar, for Falklands, for Pitcairn, etc. It's Self Determination. In Gibraltar and Falklands the people living there have families stretching back centuries (over 300 years in Gibraltar's case, 150 in Falklands). Nobody is telling these people they can't become independent, or join another country. They quite simply don't want to. When things are close in opion, like Scotland and Northern Ireland, then things are more delicate -- you can't please everyone, so you have to do what's the least danger. In 2013, 92% of the Falklands voted, and 99.8% of those that voted, voted to stay British. In 2002, 88% of Gibraltar voted, and 99% voted to stay British.
    - narag 7y ago
      The real question is why. First, consider that nobody can be deprived of their nationality. They would still be UK citizens no matter what country owns the place. Now Gibraltar lives mostly on smuggling and money laundering, with a little tourism and the military. The military facilities are no longer very useful for the British. So what would they do there? There are more companies than inhabitants. Once the tax haven status disappears, all this income goes elsewhere. No more turning a blind eye for smuggling. Real state would suffer a big hit too. No wonder they want their town to stay British. But they don't have a say really. Not because we say so, but the UK government. Taking that kind of referenda seriously would be so silly as voting if... oh, wait!

cs02rm0 7y ago

opinions vary but even my most angry brexit voting friends of mine would not do that in a re-vote EU election polling may suggest otherwise. There's something slightly weird in UK politics where the media predominantly takes one side of a debate and then it seems to become socially unacceptable to be on the other side. The brand new Brexit Party look to be getting double the vote of any other party, yet other than of parents and in laws no one I know has offered up that they were on the leave side. Yet I could name maybe 100 people who have talked about being on the remain side. I've been brought up not to talk openly about politics anyway, but it seems a shame to me that there's a relatively silent majority. Anyway, fully agree with your post otherwise. It looks worse than Eurovision!

pc2g4d 7y ago

I think it's multiple things. First, they don't want to piss off their allies, the UK and US, by voting against UK occupation. Second, they may themselves have similar territorial arrangements and are concerned that this sets a precedent for use of the International Court of Justice to delegitimize such possessions.

Leherenn 7y ago

France has a few territories in a rather similar situation, and possibly the Netherlands as well. They probably don't want to anger the UK because they might need their support in the future if the same kind of vote happens to them, but at the same time, if they support the UK, a lot of countries will remember it and it could swing the vote against them. At this point the best game is not to play. For Germany, I do not know as they do not have overseas territories as far as I know. However, they are pretty keen on the UK staying in the EU, so that might be the reason.

Loic 7y ago
For France, it is even more sensitive as we are in the process of giving some of these territories more rights or simply full independence. This is a long and painful process for all the involved parties anyway because you dig again in the past often violent history of the territories.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Evil of the past should never be ignored. No point of overthinking and being too emotional about it, but there are good lessons to be learned there

toyg 7y ago

UN votes like these are a function of timing as much as of the actual content. Delegations trade votes to gain support in this or that ongoing issue, at the UN and elsewhere. It just so happens that 1) the UK, thanks to Brexit, has basically lost all influence it had on other EU countries. EU members are more interested in gathering support on key votes in Bruxelles and Strasbourg; but the UK now cannot “trade” anything of that sort. 2) Again because of more and more stuff being cleared at EU level, the US has less and less to “sell” to individual member states. This goes double when the current administration is unabashedly isolationist, protectionist, and downright warmongering on trade issues, giving a first-line position to the likes of John Bolton who actively despise the UN and everything it stands for. UK and US are currently isolated at the diplomatic level in ways unseen since WWII. The best they can expect from European countries, even when they share actual interests (like on decolonisation) is the occasional abstention. I expect we will see more and more similar votes coming to pass, in the next two years.

Al-Khwarizmi 7y ago

I'm sure that Spain would vote against the UK irrespective of Brexit. If you have some territory illegally occupied by the British in your very country, it's obvious that you are going to vote against the British occupying territory elsewhere. It's coherent with Spanish foreign policy for many decades, from far before Brexit was even a talking point. I haven't noticed any will of the Spanish government to punish the UK for Brexit. That might be an opinion of laypeople, but not of the government as far as I know. In fact, I think Spain was the first country to sign an agreement so that the British can keep entering the country without a visa after Brexit, as long as there is reciprocity.

narag 7y ago
There's an obvious reason for that. Many Spaniards from the nearby towns work in Gibraltar. I can't talk for everyone here, but most people I know couldn't care less about sovereignty. The huge problem with Gibraltar is smuggling and money laundering. Edit: also, there's a common belief that we haven't pressured about the Gibraltar status because it could trigger that Morocco will do the same with Ceuta and Melilla. I can't really know, but it's really strange that after twenty years in the EU nothing has changed.
- isostatic 7y ago
  It's very simple, for Gibraltar, for Falklands, for Pitcairn, etc. It's Self Determination. In Gibraltar and Falklands the people living there have families stretching back centuries (over 300 years in Gibraltar's case, 150 in Falklands). Nobody is telling these people they can't become independent, or join another country. They quite simply don't want to. When things are close in opion, like Scotland and Northern Ireland, then things are more delicate -- you can't please everyone, so you have to do what's the least danger. In 2013, 92% of the Falklands voted, and 99.8% of those that voted, voted to stay British. In 2002, 88% of Gibraltar voted, and 99% voted to stay British.
  - narag 7y ago
    The real question is why. First, consider that nobody can be deprived of their nationality. They would still be UK citizens no matter what country owns the place. Now Gibraltar lives mostly on smuggling and money laundering, with a little tourism and the military. The military facilities are no longer very useful for the British. So what would they do there? There are more companies than inhabitants. Once the tax haven status disappears, all this income goes elsewhere. No more turning a blind eye for smuggling. Real state would suffer a big hit too. No wonder they want their town to stay British. But they don't have a say really. Not because we say so, but the UK government. Taking that kind of referenda seriously would be so silly as voting if... oh, wait!