3 ms·

> They introduce a new IOCTL which you can use to discover the session id and then authenticate it however you like. > In particular, it is possible to use a z

> They introduce a new IOCTL which you can use to discover the session id and then authenticate it however you like. > In particular, it is possible to use a zero knowledge protocol where a MITM attacker cannot determine if authentication were actually used or not except via changes in user behavior if there are any. I'd love for you to expand more on this. What I can't think of is a realistic scenario where it's possible to validate the session id in a secure way, but there is also some reason that we couldn't just use TLS with client certificates.

mazieres 7y ago
> I'd love for you to expand more on this. What I can't think of is a realistic scenario where it's possible to validate the session id in a secure way, but there is also some reason that we couldn't just use TLS with client certificates. An example would be if you don't have a certificate. Maybe you just have a pre-shared secret or a kerberos ticket. Or worse, maybe you just have a password, and so need to use a PAKE protocol or something to authenticate the session. Or maybe you are using an RPC protocol, like NFS, that doesn't let you add TLS in a backwards-compatible way, but where the client and server do share some secret file handle.
- dagenix 7y ago
  > An example would be if you don't have a certificate. Given that letsencrypt exists, I don't see why you wouldn't have a cert. > Maybe you just have a pre-shared secret or a kerberos ticket. The pre-shared secret could be a cert which would work with TLS. > Or worse, maybe you just have a password, and so need to use a PAKE protocol or something to authenticate the session. I can't think of a realistic example of such a protocol. What protocol uses PAKE, but doesn't support encryption, but will verify a session id? It seems like using TLS would be simpler. > Or maybe you are using an RPC protocol, like NFS, that doesn't let you add TLS in a backwards-compatible way, but where the client and server do share some secret file handle. Such a scenario still requires modifications to the NFS server and client software, which, if done, isn't clear why it would be better than just layering TLS onto the protocol.
  - nullc 7y ago
    > Given that letsencrypt exists, I don't see why you wouldn't have a cert. That makes an enormous number of assumptions-- that you have a domain name, that you accept inbound connections, and that "gee some server connected to my name and got me once" is a remotely acceptable criteria for identity in your application.
nullc 7y ago
> What I can't think of is a realistic scenario where it's possible to validate the session id in a secure way, but there is also some reason that we couldn't just use TLS with client certificates. TLS with client certificates requires securely getting and certifying the certificates. Somehow. Yet many alternatives exist. For some applications keys might exist in dns-- but in others no dnssec or names could be assumed. For some applications the endpoints can be assumed to have a shared password, so some SPAKE can be used to authenticate. For some applications an identity exists in some external consensus system that the other side can provide proof from, but which doesn't fit into the x509 model. (For example, if you wanted to use keys registered in namecoin to authenticate your identity). For some applications you would like to use an anonymous group signature: "This user is on the authorized list, but beyond that, I don't want to know what user this is." For some applications each party should be cryptographically unidentified, anonymous, and indistinguishable to from any other party unless both of their keys match, because otherwise you could track the parties around the internet from IP to IP. TLS/client cert lets you achieve this for one side-- you can decline to send the client cert if the server identity isn't to your liking, but you can track the server's identity around. None of these examples fit nicely into the TLS/x509 model. All of them, including something functionally equivalent to TLS+x509clientcerts can be implemented on top of TCPcrypt.

mazieres 7y ago

> I'd love for you to expand more on this. What I can't think of is a realistic scenario where it's possible to validate the session id in a secure way, but there is also some reason that we couldn't just use TLS with client certificates. An example would be if you don't have a certificate. Maybe you just have a pre-shared secret or a kerberos ticket. Or worse, maybe you just have a password, and so need to use a PAKE protocol or something to authenticate the session. Or maybe you are using an RPC protocol, like NFS, that doesn't let you add TLS in a backwards-compatible way, but where the client and server do share some secret file handle.

dagenix 7y ago
> An example would be if you don't have a certificate. Given that letsencrypt exists, I don't see why you wouldn't have a cert. > Maybe you just have a pre-shared secret or a kerberos ticket. The pre-shared secret could be a cert which would work with TLS. > Or worse, maybe you just have a password, and so need to use a PAKE protocol or something to authenticate the session. I can't think of a realistic example of such a protocol. What protocol uses PAKE, but doesn't support encryption, but will verify a session id? It seems like using TLS would be simpler. > Or maybe you are using an RPC protocol, like NFS, that doesn't let you add TLS in a backwards-compatible way, but where the client and server do share some secret file handle. Such a scenario still requires modifications to the NFS server and client software, which, if done, isn't clear why it would be better than just layering TLS onto the protocol.
- nullc 7y ago
  > Given that letsencrypt exists, I don't see why you wouldn't have a cert. That makes an enormous number of assumptions-- that you have a domain name, that you accept inbound connections, and that "gee some server connected to my name and got me once" is a remotely acceptable criteria for identity in your application.

nullc 7y ago

> What I can't think of is a realistic scenario where it's possible to validate the session id in a secure way, but there is also some reason that we couldn't just use TLS with client certificates. TLS with client certificates requires securely getting and certifying the certificates. Somehow. Yet many alternatives exist. For some applications keys might exist in dns-- but in others no dnssec or names could be assumed. For some applications the endpoints can be assumed to have a shared password, so some SPAKE can be used to authenticate. For some applications an identity exists in some external consensus system that the other side can provide proof from, but which doesn't fit into the x509 model. (For example, if you wanted to use keys registered in namecoin to authenticate your identity). For some applications you would like to use an anonymous group signature: "This user is on the authorized list, but beyond that, I don't want to know what user this is." For some applications each party should be cryptographically unidentified, anonymous, and indistinguishable to from any other party unless both of their keys match, because otherwise you could track the parties around the internet from IP to IP. TLS/client cert lets you achieve this for one side-- you can decline to send the client cert if the server identity isn't to your liking, but you can track the server's identity around. None of these examples fit nicely into the TLS/x509 model. All of them, including something functionally equivalent to TLS+x509clientcerts can be implemented on top of TCPcrypt.