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I completely agree with you in some cases. However as a data engineer I strongly doubt that many (any) of the dozens of open source projects I use on a weekly

I completely agree with you in some cases. However as a data engineer I strongly doubt that many (any) of the dozens of open source projects I use on a weekly basis were created for idealistic reasons. They were almost all tools (or collections of tools) that were created to fill a business need, or to make a developer's life easier, and then open sourced for one reason or another. I don't see any conflict with corporate sponsorship of these projects.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
I'm not at my best. Maybe someone other than me can find Patrick McKenzie's HN comment about "please make it easy for me to get an invoice instead of calling it a donation because I have to comply with tax laws and yadda, but would be happy to support your open source project if I actually use it for business purposes and can get the piece of paper called an invoice that my accountant and the government insist on." I think that's a good direction that is probably underdeveloped currently, though every single time I mention it someone points to a tweet of his rather than the actual HN comment. (Which is not the end of the world and maybe there's a better way to frame that, I'm just not at my best )
- johnbatch 7y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863939
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Yes, that's the one (with accompanying pertinent discussion). Thanks.
    - RhodesianHunter 7y ago
      The parent of this thread is someone in marketing suggesting ways this could come out of the marketing budget, very similar to the workaround of invoicing suggested in your linked comment. Both are ways to make donating to OSS a business expense rather than a charitable donation.
      - DoreenMichele 7y ago
        No, not really. Adding logos and yadda in exchange for remuneration is a really well established form of commercial monetization. In contrast, invoicing OSS is a new and innovative way to get cash for what you already do, just like a donation. If people want to go that route, my comments on the internet aren't some kind of bar to that approach, so I'm not sure why you seem to feel some need to argue it. But if you are doing open source for idealistic reasons and yadda, as per my comment, then invoicing per Patrick McKenzie's explanation is actually something new and innovative that serves a similar function to the donation model in terms of preserving an element of the OSS model that matters to some folks/projects, but opens up the possibility of getting it from a company. In addition to being something of a green field for the donation model and extra source of money, companies generally have deeper pockets than individuals. I'm not telling anyone they aren't allowed to commercialize their project. I'm just saying it's a space I've thought long and hard about for many years and researched and yadda, and if you are in open source because a business model is antithetical to your mental models and goals for the project, then invoicing may suit your needs in cases where corporate sponsorship feels like the wrong answer.
        zapita 7y ago
        Invoicing support, maintenance and custom development of open-source software is a more established practice than patreon-style donations to open-source developers.
        DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I'm aware that OSS sometimes makes money on activities like customer support and custom development. That's not what's being discussed here.
        zapita 7y ago
        We’re discussing it right now... I’m referring to the concept of “invoicing open-source” which you describe as “new and innovative”. I’m arguing that it’s not. It’s a variation of the support and custom development model which is already very common.
- jjeaff 7y ago
  You don't need an invoice to make something a business expenses and or tax deduction. Even in the case of an audit, the bank or credit card statement showing who the money was paid to is enough. Now, if you are giving cash, you would definitely need an invoice.
  - ambentzen 7y ago
    That is not gonna fly where I am from. Our external accountant, CPA type guy, will absolutely hound our ass, and charge his hourly rate doing it, for the invoice corresponding to the VISA card charge.
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      Well of course the business can have their own policies. I am just saying what the law is and what the IRS is allowed to require you to keep. You don't have to keep receipts. There are lots of other acceptable forms of documentation. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/what-kind-of-records-should-i-keep https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...
  - jsjohnst 7y ago
    This is just flat wrong advice in every jurisdiction I’ve worked in and further wouldn’t fly at any employer. The bank statement may provide the WHO in the transaction, but the invoice / receipt / similar provides the most important part, the WHAT that was paid for.
    - jjeaff 7y ago
      No, you are wrong. Sure, employers will all have their own rules. But I am talking about IRS substantiation. The IRS lists out the different forms of documentation needed to support your expenses. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/what-kind-of-records-should-i-keep https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... You can see right there under Expenses that credit card statements as well as cancelled checks are valid documentation for a write-off.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

I'm not at my best. Maybe someone other than me can find Patrick McKenzie's HN comment about "please make it easy for me to get an invoice instead of calling it a donation because I have to comply with tax laws and yadda, but would be happy to support your open source project if I actually use it for business purposes and can get the piece of paper called an invoice that my accountant and the government insist on." I think that's a good direction that is probably underdeveloped currently, though every single time I mention it someone points to a tweet of his rather than the actual HN comment. (Which is not the end of the world and maybe there's a better way to frame that, I'm just not at my best )

johnbatch 7y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863939 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863939
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Yes, that's the one (with accompanying pertinent discussion). Thanks.
  - RhodesianHunter 7y ago
    The parent of this thread is someone in marketing suggesting ways this could come out of the marketing budget, very similar to the workaround of invoicing suggested in your linked comment. Both are ways to make donating to OSS a business expense rather than a charitable donation.
    - DoreenMichele 7y ago
      No, not really. Adding logos and yadda in exchange for remuneration is a really well established form of commercial monetization. In contrast, invoicing OSS is a new and innovative way to get cash for what you already do, just like a donation. If people want to go that route, my comments on the internet aren't some kind of bar to that approach, so I'm not sure why you seem to feel some need to argue it. But if you are doing open source for idealistic reasons and yadda, as per my comment, then invoicing per Patrick McKenzie's explanation is actually something new and innovative that serves a similar function to the donation model in terms of preserving an element of the OSS model that matters to some folks/projects, but opens up the possibility of getting it from a company. In addition to being something of a green field for the donation model and extra source of money, companies generally have deeper pockets than individuals. I'm not telling anyone they aren't allowed to commercialize their project. I'm just saying it's a space I've thought long and hard about for many years and researched and yadda, and if you are in open source because a business model is antithetical to your mental models and goals for the project, then invoicing may suit your needs in cases where corporate sponsorship feels like the wrong answer.
      - zapita 7y ago
        Invoicing support, maintenance and custom development of open-source software is a more established practice than patreon-style donations to open-source developers.
        DoreenMichele 7y ago
        I'm aware that OSS sometimes makes money on activities like customer support and custom development. That's not what's being discussed here.
        zapita 7y ago
        We’re discussing it right now... I’m referring to the concept of “invoicing open-source” which you describe as “new and innovative”. I’m arguing that it’s not. It’s a variation of the support and custom development model which is already very common.
jjeaff 7y ago
You don't need an invoice to make something a business expenses and or tax deduction. Even in the case of an audit, the bank or credit card statement showing who the money was paid to is enough. Now, if you are giving cash, you would definitely need an invoice.
- ambentzen 7y ago
  That is not gonna fly where I am from. Our external accountant, CPA type guy, will absolutely hound our ass, and charge his hourly rate doing it, for the invoice corresponding to the VISA card charge.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    Well of course the business can have their own policies. I am just saying what the law is and what the IRS is allowed to require you to keep. You don't have to keep receipts. There are lots of other acceptable forms of documentation. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/what-kind-of-records-should-i-keep https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...
- jsjohnst 7y ago
  This is just flat wrong advice in every jurisdiction I’ve worked in and further wouldn’t fly at any employer. The bank statement may provide the WHO in the transaction, but the invoice / receipt / similar provides the most important part, the WHAT that was paid for.
  - jjeaff 7y ago
    No, you are wrong. Sure, employers will all have their own rules. But I am talking about IRS substantiation. The IRS lists out the different forms of documentation needed to support your expenses. https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/what-kind-of-records-should-i-keep https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe... You can see right there under Expenses that credit card statements as well as cancelled checks are valid documentation for a write-off.