6 ms·

Intuit has weaponized tax filing against the American taxpayer for great profit. Their lobbying efforts are very impressive.

by Yhippa 7y ago

smacktoward 7y ago
We can't blame this one on the icky lobbyists, though. It's pure exploitation of dark patterns, which means the people with responsibility here are people like HN readers -- PMs, designers and programmers, not lobbyists. (Heck, some of them may be HN readers.)
- im_down_w_otp 7y ago
  Can't we though? Isn't Congress planning to permanently ban the IRS from providing online tax-prep services itself in an attempt to permanently entrench this pointless and corrosive marketplace?
  - pfranz 7y ago
    I'm happy for someone to correct me, but my understanding is in exchange for the IRS to work with these companies on their free service the IRS wouldn't /run/ a competing free service and the contract was renewed every couple years. The IRS could develop something, but couldn't launch it until the contract expires...which would take a few years, anyway. Those terms didn't seem that unreasonable to me.
    - inetknght 7y ago
      > Those terms didn't seem that unreasonable to me. You don't think it's unreasonable that the IRS is precluded from making better services available to American citizens?
      - pfranz 7y ago
        ...in exchange for a partnership between private companies offering a free service. Other than the non-compete from the IRS, I'm not exactly sure what these private companies get out of it? If they're hiding access to their free filing, then its not to up-sell. In 2007, they stopped allowing things like loans against returns. Feel free to have a different opinion on this. The program has been around since 2001. This bill just extends the same program. The government hasn't historically had a great track record with developing web services. I see things getting better with things like the USDS, but that was only formed in 2014 and Congress keeps cutting back funding of the IRS. The current contract expires in 2020. I can't see why its a big deal to extend it. The specific language is “to not enter the tax preparation software and e-filing marketplace.” and my understanding is that it doesn't preclude development, just launching it. But I would love if the IRS would develop a first party solution.
        pnutjam 7y ago
        Well, we've seen what their "offering a free service" is worth. They hide it and trick people into paying.
        pfranz 7y ago
        Yes. Only 3% of people use it when 70% of people qualify. I hope that changes after all the news this year about them attempting to hide it from Google. So the US got a half-hearted program where 3% of Americans could file for free in exchange for promising not to have a program they weren't going to do anyway. I really wish paying taxes in the US was done with Open Source software, like I understand Brazil has. I wish the IRS mailed you a post-card if you took the standard deduction like the UK, and many other countries do. But making noise over extending this program doesn't get any closer to things like that. I just think all the energy over this specific issue is misguided and overblown. California does have a state run website for filing basic taxes. For as many dark patterns "the big guys" use in their free product, it's still way better than California's site.
    - gknoy 7y ago
      So ... if they ran an API, and open sourced a client, would they be running it? ;)
    - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
      There was a news story recently about Congress literally barring the IRS from ever offering their own service, which is quite different. I don't know if it passed or not...
      - pfranz 7y ago
        Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. The bill would extend the program that's already in place and has been since 2001. Right now it's currently set to expire in 2020. The specific language is “to not enter the tax preparation software and e-filing marketplace.” which doesn't prevent them from developing their own solution--only launching it while the non-compete is in place. I'd love for the IRS to offer their own solution. I just don't see it happening under this Congress and I think it would be difficult even if Democrats took control of both houses. Congress has starved the IRS funding for years and the US government hasn't been particularly good at developing web services. I'm not sure if this is a permanent ban because I haven't read the bill, but I think it was exaggerated in the news. I don't see why it couldn't be reversed as part of a serious effort to roll something out. The bill was HR 1957 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1957?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22taxpayer+first+act%22%5D%7D&r=1&s=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1957... The program is called Free File https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File and the tax prep companies are part of the Free File Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File_Alliance
        Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Why does Congress need to pass a new law to prevent the IRS from breaking a non-compete contract? Does normal contract law not apply?
        pfranz 7y ago
        I'm not sure I follow you. The current law was passed in 2015 and carries it through 2020[1]. I could be mistaken, but if no action is taken the program would expire on both sides. I'm not quite sure what the tax companies get out of free filing other than the non-compete from the IRS. The tax companies hide their free program, so they're not getting upsales. In 2007 they agreed not to offer loans against tax returns. [1] https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irs-renews-deal-for-free-tax-software https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irs-renews-deal-for-fre...
r00fus 7y ago
While I agree with Intuit being complete rent-seekers, I don't think it's "weaponized". It's every-day lobbying (aka corruption) to limit government from doing what many other countries do successfully: automate tax filing.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  Lobbying is not the same thing as corruption, and conflating the two does not help the conversation or address the problems with either.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - kraftman 7y ago
    How are they different, for ignorant people like me?
    - lucasmullens 7y ago
      Lobbying is legal. There's plenty of good reasons for it, for example some tech companies lobbied against net neutrality, which I certainly wouldn't call corruption.
      - programmer_dude 7y ago
        So lobbying is legalized corruption then? Also why is net neutrality bad?
        lucasmullens 7y ago
        Whoops, I meant for net neutrality.
      - kraftman 7y ago
        Does being able to lobby for good things as well as bad things make it better? It's still essentially bribing the government to do something other than what's in the best interests of the public?

Intuit has weaponized tax filing against the American taxpayer for great profit. Their lobbying efforts are very impressive.

by Yhippa 7y ago

Intuit has weaponized tax filing against the American taxpayer for great profit. Their lobbying efforts are very impressive.

smacktoward 7y ago

We can't blame this one on the icky lobbyists, though. It's pure exploitation of dark patterns, which means the people with responsibility here are people like HN readers -- PMs, designers and programmers, not lobbyists. (Heck, some of them may be HN readers.)

im_down_w_otp 7y ago
Can't we though? Isn't Congress planning to permanently ban the IRS from providing online tax-prep services itself in an attempt to permanently entrench this pointless and corrosive marketplace?
- pfranz 7y ago
  I'm happy for someone to correct me, but my understanding is in exchange for the IRS to work with these companies on their free service the IRS wouldn't /run/ a competing free service and the contract was renewed every couple years. The IRS could develop something, but couldn't launch it until the contract expires...which would take a few years, anyway. Those terms didn't seem that unreasonable to me.
  - inetknght 7y ago
    > Those terms didn't seem that unreasonable to me. You don't think it's unreasonable that the IRS is precluded from making better services available to American citizens?
    - pfranz 7y ago
      ...in exchange for a partnership between private companies offering a free service. Other than the non-compete from the IRS, I'm not exactly sure what these private companies get out of it? If they're hiding access to their free filing, then its not to up-sell. In 2007, they stopped allowing things like loans against returns. Feel free to have a different opinion on this. The program has been around since 2001. This bill just extends the same program. The government hasn't historically had a great track record with developing web services. I see things getting better with things like the USDS, but that was only formed in 2014 and Congress keeps cutting back funding of the IRS. The current contract expires in 2020. I can't see why its a big deal to extend it. The specific language is “to not enter the tax preparation software and e-filing marketplace.” and my understanding is that it doesn't preclude development, just launching it. But I would love if the IRS would develop a first party solution.
      - pnutjam 7y ago
        Well, we've seen what their "offering a free service" is worth. They hide it and trick people into paying.
        pfranz 7y ago
        Yes. Only 3% of people use it when 70% of people qualify. I hope that changes after all the news this year about them attempting to hide it from Google. So the US got a half-hearted program where 3% of Americans could file for free in exchange for promising not to have a program they weren't going to do anyway. I really wish paying taxes in the US was done with Open Source software, like I understand Brazil has. I wish the IRS mailed you a post-card if you took the standard deduction like the UK, and many other countries do. But making noise over extending this program doesn't get any closer to things like that. I just think all the energy over this specific issue is misguided and overblown. California does have a state run website for filing basic taxes. For as many dark patterns "the big guys" use in their free product, it's still way better than California's site.
  - gknoy 7y ago
    So ... if they ran an API, and open sourced a client, would they be running it? ;)
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    There was a news story recently about Congress literally barring the IRS from ever offering their own service, which is quite different. I don't know if it passed or not...
    - pfranz 7y ago
      Yes. That's exactly what I'm talking about. The bill would extend the program that's already in place and has been since 2001. Right now it's currently set to expire in 2020. The specific language is “to not enter the tax preparation software and e-filing marketplace.” which doesn't prevent them from developing their own solution--only launching it while the non-compete is in place. I'd love for the IRS to offer their own solution. I just don't see it happening under this Congress and I think it would be difficult even if Democrats took control of both houses. Congress has starved the IRS funding for years and the US government hasn't been particularly good at developing web services. I'm not sure if this is a permanent ban because I haven't read the bill, but I think it was exaggerated in the news. I don't see why it couldn't be reversed as part of a serious effort to roll something out. The bill was HR 1957 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1957?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22taxpayer+first+act%22%5D%7D&r=1&s=1 https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/1957... The program is called Free File https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File and the tax prep companies are part of the Free File Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File_Alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_File_Alliance
      - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
        Why does Congress need to pass a new law to prevent the IRS from breaking a non-compete contract? Does normal contract law not apply?
        pfranz 7y ago
        I'm not sure I follow you. The current law was passed in 2015 and carries it through 2020[1]. I could be mistaken, but if no action is taken the program would expire on both sides. I'm not quite sure what the tax companies get out of free filing other than the non-compete from the IRS. The tax companies hide their free program, so they're not getting upsales. In 2007 they agreed not to offer loans against tax returns. [1] https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irs-renews-deal-for-free-tax-software https://www.accountingtoday.com/news/irs-renews-deal-for-fre...

r00fus 7y ago

While I agree with Intuit being complete rent-seekers, I don't think it's "weaponized". It's every-day lobbying (aka corruption) to limit government from doing what many other countries do successfully: automate tax filing.

vonmoltke 7y ago
Lobbying is not the same thing as corruption, and conflating the two does not help the conversation or address the problems with either.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- kraftman 7y ago
  How are they different, for ignorant people like me?
  - lucasmullens 7y ago
    Lobbying is legal. There's plenty of good reasons for it, for example some tech companies lobbied against net neutrality, which I certainly wouldn't call corruption.
    - programmer_dude 7y ago
      So lobbying is legalized corruption then? Also why is net neutrality bad?
      - lucasmullens 7y ago
        Whoops, I meant for net neutrality.
    - kraftman 7y ago
      Does being able to lobby for good things as well as bad things make it better? It's still essentially bribing the government to do something other than what's in the best interests of the public?