7 ms·

What is the alternative? All of the “developed” nations need immigration to prevent the social systems from completely falling apart. Our entire financial syst

What is the alternative? All of the “developed” nations need immigration to prevent the social systems from completely falling apart. Our entire financial system is based on increasing population growth and the young paying to support the old. There aren’t enough young people. Without immigration, pensions, healthcare, social safety nets, property values… it all implodes. We go back to 1930 where old people just die in the street.

blfr 7y ago
What is the alternative? Having kids. Having a sustainable culture rather than some weird human shredder reliant on constant stream of new souls from abroad.
- themagician 7y ago
  People can’t afford to have kids. Maybe if young people didn’t have to spend a huge portion of their paycheck supporting old people they could afford kids. The older generation doesn’t want immigrants. The older generation votes against tax increases. The older generation does everything they can to keep home prices high. Then they demand no one cut their entitlements. All take, no give. It’s not surprising people aren’t having as many kids.
  - cthalupa 7y ago
    With Japan, it's not solely (or perhaps even primarily) a matter of not being able to afford kids. Even in Tokyo the fantastic public transport means you can live in one of the more inexpensive wards and still commute basically anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. People aren't even dating in Japan, though. Marriage rates are way down, people aren't having sex, etc. Even the non-sexual aspects of relationships have been commoditized, with host/hostess bars where you pay to have conversations with people like you would while out on a date, cuddle bars where you pay just to cuddle, etc. Dating video games are huge. Women being able to more readily progress into senior positions in white collar jobs is a relatively recent occurrence, and getting married/having kids is a good way to end your career, so they're less likely to want to date seriously.
    - chr1 7y ago
      Perhaps they should invest more into developing artificial womb https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/14/human-babies-born-using-an-artificial-womb-possible-in-a-decade-8156458/ https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/14/human-babies-born-using-an-ar...
  - throaw 7y ago
    its their money, they paid in to the social security system and funded it, got robbed by taxes throughout their lifetime, paid taxes to build all the roads, govt services, forces, paid for the entire country and more with help abroad to build everything and on and on, whereas the younger generation socialist kids want to take even more from some elderly that also don't have 2 cents to rub together for retirement, partially at fault by the govt robbing them blind throughout the years
duality 7y ago
It is weird to hear: 1) stop having so many kids, it's bad for the Earth, and 2) we're not having enough kids, let's substitute with immigrants.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Perhaps some of those kids will become rocket scientists and help us get off this Earth and continue our relentless expansion and consumption off-world. Also, isn’t immigration a negation of 1)? The kids are already born, they’re just not in the same country. Sarcasm aside, there are two systemic problems at play. 1) is ecological, and 2) is economic. The second may be physically easier to solve- but it still requires us to figure out a way to move beyond our capitalist system that a) prioritizes relentless growth and consumption, and b) has countries with large welfare programs that requires new workers and taxpayers to keep the elderly and the ill off the streets.
  - ousta 7y ago
    nope thats called being a liberal. in western countries no woman wants to make a kid. they just want to work. in africa were the values are still traditional in terms of family, that is the role of a woman. Let's tackle the problem were it is. Western countries should make the babies as we live in societies where life is supposed to be easier. there should be financial penalties to the crazy growth of african/asian countries, education regarding contraception.
maximus1983 7y ago
And then the immigrants stay and get old and there is increased strain on the strained social systems. Most immigration systems in Europe assumed that the immigrants would go home once they have made some money. At some point it is going to implode anyway. The UK in the last 25 years has completely changed due to immigration and our health system is basically about to fall over, there are massive cultural tensions between natives and immigrant populations that are on the verge of exploding in poorer areas (North of England) on almost a daily basis. None of this gets covered in the news but there are plenty of videos on Facebook, Youtube etc of clashes. I suggest you read the "Strange Death of Europe".
- themagician 7y ago
  Healthcare requires young, relatively healthy, people. It’s another system where the young pay for the old. The immigrants aren’t the immediate problem, they are the immediate solution. They may crowd the system, but they are also the ones funding it. Kick all young, relatively healthy, immigrants out and see how quickly healthcare collapses as the older people on fixed income try to find a way to balance the healthcare budget.
  - maximus1983 7y ago
    You miss the point. The system is going to collapse anyway and long term thinking is needed
    - vkou 7y ago
      Immigration allows you to slowly deflate the demographic bubble over the next thirty years, instead of pop it, with much suffering over the next ten.
  - lmm 7y ago
    Importing a bunch of young people works for one generation. But those young people grow old (and assimilate into a culture with a low birth rate), and what do you do then - import ever more young people to take care of the previous generation of immigrants? That doesn't seem sustainable.
TheChaplain 7y ago
Kids. The primary reason as I understand it for the lack of kids is simply because it's a trap for women as it is now. Maternity- and child care leave are too short. There are extreme shortage of daycare for infants and pre-school children, forcing women to stay home and even give up on their career until the child is old enough to go to/from school themselves. And having 2-3 children pretty much kills any career.
- mantas 7y ago
  Yet what I see around is men being against having kids. While women do somewhat support the idea. It's definitely not a one-sided issue. But yes, infrastructure is definitely a massive issue. I wonder what would happen if resources that Western europe countries pour into migration would be put for fixing birth rate. Push propaganda on all fronts, put shit ton of money into infrastructure, install new cultural norms...
  - chr1 7y ago
    Propaganda usually doesn't work or has the opposite effect. It may be better to pass a law that would link pension of old people to tax paid by young people who have chosen them. This will make having many successful children profitable again. And will restore the role of a family, which is artificially lowered by social services.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  > Maternity- and child care leave are too short. There are extreme shortage of daycare for infants and pre-school children, forcing women to stay home and even give up on their career until the child is old enough to go to/from school themselves. This is not the case in Sweden and it has not had any great effects on fertility, which is within spitting distance of its neighbours. If you can’t afford childcare in Sweden the state will pay. Childcare is heavily subsidised and available 24/7 if you have shift work. Tiny effects on fertility. > Cohort Fertility Patterns in the Nordic Countries > Country differences in fertility outcome are generally rather low. Childlessness is highest in Finland and lowest in Norway, and the educational differentials are largest in Norway. Despite such differences, the cohort analyses in many ways support the notion of a common Nordic fertility regime. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23525308_Cohort_Fertility_Patterns_in_the_Nordic_Countries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23525308_Cohort_Fer...
ericd 7y ago
They don't all implode, the paper value might implode, and the expectations probably have to change. That's pretty different. And honestly, imploding property prices would be quite helpful in solving the sub-replacement rate birth rate, as well as a host of other social problems.
PorterDuff 7y ago
So what happens when you have perpetual growth?
- themagician 7y ago
  I don’t know. Logan’s Run, maybe.
nitwit005 7y ago
Ultimately the global population is going to level off for one reason or another. Immigration is a temporary fix. Alternatively, you can keep going with exponential growth, if you can find a few more planets to put people on.
GoblinSlayer 7y ago
Childbirth can be encouraged, it's just not done.

blfr 7y ago

What is the alternative? Having kids. Having a sustainable culture rather than some weird human shredder reliant on constant stream of new souls from abroad.

themagician 7y ago
People can’t afford to have kids. Maybe if young people didn’t have to spend a huge portion of their paycheck supporting old people they could afford kids. The older generation doesn’t want immigrants. The older generation votes against tax increases. The older generation does everything they can to keep home prices high. Then they demand no one cut their entitlements. All take, no give. It’s not surprising people aren’t having as many kids.
- cthalupa 7y ago
  With Japan, it's not solely (or perhaps even primarily) a matter of not being able to afford kids. Even in Tokyo the fantastic public transport means you can live in one of the more inexpensive wards and still commute basically anywhere in a reasonable amount of time. People aren't even dating in Japan, though. Marriage rates are way down, people aren't having sex, etc. Even the non-sexual aspects of relationships have been commoditized, with host/hostess bars where you pay to have conversations with people like you would while out on a date, cuddle bars where you pay just to cuddle, etc. Dating video games are huge. Women being able to more readily progress into senior positions in white collar jobs is a relatively recent occurrence, and getting married/having kids is a good way to end your career, so they're less likely to want to date seriously.
  - chr1 7y ago
    Perhaps they should invest more into developing artificial womb https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/14/human-babies-born-using-an-artificial-womb-possible-in-a-decade-8156458/ https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/14/human-babies-born-using-an-ar...
- throaw 7y ago
  its their money, they paid in to the social security system and funded it, got robbed by taxes throughout their lifetime, paid taxes to build all the roads, govt services, forces, paid for the entire country and more with help abroad to build everything and on and on, whereas the younger generation socialist kids want to take even more from some elderly that also don't have 2 cents to rub together for retirement, partially at fault by the govt robbing them blind throughout the years

duality 7y ago

It is weird to hear: 1) stop having so many kids, it's bad for the Earth, and 2) we're not having enough kids, let's substitute with immigrants.

Apocryphon 7y ago
Perhaps some of those kids will become rocket scientists and help us get off this Earth and continue our relentless expansion and consumption off-world. Also, isn’t immigration a negation of 1)? The kids are already born, they’re just not in the same country. Sarcasm aside, there are two systemic problems at play. 1) is ecological, and 2) is economic. The second may be physically easier to solve- but it still requires us to figure out a way to move beyond our capitalist system that a) prioritizes relentless growth and consumption, and b) has countries with large welfare programs that requires new workers and taxpayers to keep the elderly and the ill off the streets.
- ousta 7y ago
  nope thats called being a liberal. in western countries no woman wants to make a kid. they just want to work. in africa were the values are still traditional in terms of family, that is the role of a woman. Let's tackle the problem were it is. Western countries should make the babies as we live in societies where life is supposed to be easier. there should be financial penalties to the crazy growth of african/asian countries, education regarding contraception.

maximus1983 7y ago

And then the immigrants stay and get old and there is increased strain on the strained social systems. Most immigration systems in Europe assumed that the immigrants would go home once they have made some money. At some point it is going to implode anyway. The UK in the last 25 years has completely changed due to immigration and our health system is basically about to fall over, there are massive cultural tensions between natives and immigrant populations that are on the verge of exploding in poorer areas (North of England) on almost a daily basis. None of this gets covered in the news but there are plenty of videos on Facebook, Youtube etc of clashes. I suggest you read the "Strange Death of Europe".

themagician 7y ago
Healthcare requires young, relatively healthy, people. It’s another system where the young pay for the old. The immigrants aren’t the immediate problem, they are the immediate solution. They may crowd the system, but they are also the ones funding it. Kick all young, relatively healthy, immigrants out and see how quickly healthcare collapses as the older people on fixed income try to find a way to balance the healthcare budget.
- maximus1983 7y ago
  You miss the point. The system is going to collapse anyway and long term thinking is needed
  - vkou 7y ago
    Immigration allows you to slowly deflate the demographic bubble over the next thirty years, instead of pop it, with much suffering over the next ten.
- lmm 7y ago
  Importing a bunch of young people works for one generation. But those young people grow old (and assimilate into a culture with a low birth rate), and what do you do then - import ever more young people to take care of the previous generation of immigrants? That doesn't seem sustainable.

TheChaplain 7y ago

Kids. The primary reason as I understand it for the lack of kids is simply because it's a trap for women as it is now. Maternity- and child care leave are too short. There are extreme shortage of daycare for infants and pre-school children, forcing women to stay home and even give up on their career until the child is old enough to go to/from school themselves. And having 2-3 children pretty much kills any career.

mantas 7y ago
Yet what I see around is men being against having kids. While women do somewhat support the idea. It's definitely not a one-sided issue. But yes, infrastructure is definitely a massive issue. I wonder what would happen if resources that Western europe countries pour into migration would be put for fixing birth rate. Push propaganda on all fronts, put shit ton of money into infrastructure, install new cultural norms...
- chr1 7y ago
  Propaganda usually doesn't work or has the opposite effect. It may be better to pass a law that would link pension of old people to tax paid by young people who have chosen them. This will make having many successful children profitable again. And will restore the role of a family, which is artificially lowered by social services.
barry-cotter 7y ago
> Maternity- and child care leave are too short. There are extreme shortage of daycare for infants and pre-school children, forcing women to stay home and even give up on their career until the child is old enough to go to/from school themselves. This is not the case in Sweden and it has not had any great effects on fertility, which is within spitting distance of its neighbours. If you can’t afford childcare in Sweden the state will pay. Childcare is heavily subsidised and available 24/7 if you have shift work. Tiny effects on fertility. > Cohort Fertility Patterns in the Nordic Countries > Country differences in fertility outcome are generally rather low. Childlessness is highest in Finland and lowest in Norway, and the educational differentials are largest in Norway. Despite such differences, the cohort analyses in many ways support the notion of a common Nordic fertility regime. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23525308_Cohort_Fertility_Patterns_in_the_Nordic_Countries https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23525308_Cohort_Fer...

ericd 7y ago

They don't all implode, the paper value might implode, and the expectations probably have to change. That's pretty different. And honestly, imploding property prices would be quite helpful in solving the sub-replacement rate birth rate, as well as a host of other social problems.

PorterDuff 7y ago

So what happens when you have perpetual growth?

themagician 7y ago
I don’t know. Logan’s Run, maybe.

nitwit005 7y ago

Ultimately the global population is going to level off for one reason or another. Immigration is a temporary fix. Alternatively, you can keep going with exponential growth, if you can find a few more planets to put people on.

GoblinSlayer 7y ago

Childbirth can be encouraged, it's just not done.