8 ms·

That's a ridiculous assertion. In most major cities, you don't buy "tickets" for public transportation (except maybe light rail). Everything is fare based (used

That's a ridiculous assertion. In most major cities, you don't buy "tickets" for public transportation (except maybe light rail). Everything is fare based (used to be token based, but have mainly switched to cards). You pay the fare, you ride the subway or the trolley or the bus until you get off. The fare is the same no matter how far you are going. Most of these things travel in loops. You get to the end of the line, it either turns around, or just goes in the opposite direction.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
In Shanghai, it's fare based, but the fare is definitely not the same no matter how far you're going. The fare is determined as a function of where you enter the system and where you leave, with longer trips being more expensive. There's no time limit; one entry will let you stay in the subway system all day. But you can't just live on the trains, because they shut down at night. Somehow I suspect that if Shanghai can shut down the subway overnight, New York, with half the ridership, could handle doing so too, so the question "why is this allowed to happen" seems valid.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  Not sure about Shanghai, but in most countries there are (generous) time limits associated with fares, measured from first entry. Obviously this isn't enforced "in flight", but the gate will not let you out when you try to leave and you'll need to explain to staff why you've just spent 4 hours traveling one stop -- since odds are you actually went somewhere else and jumped the turnstile both ways.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    I don't think there is a limit in Shanghai. A few years back there was a heat wave and the subway stations were full of people who just came to hang out where there was air conditioning. Jumping the turnstile is... not common.
- ummwhat 7y ago
  Because 24 hour train service is a massive convince that reduces car dependence and drunk driving. Why does Shanghai metro shut down at 11pm? So early. Impossible to have a fun night out.
  - wasdfff 7y ago
    In nyc they have multiple tunnels for the same line, so one can be maintained while the other is active. Cities that shut down their metro do their maintenance then, because their lines don’t have a backup track.
- zhte415 7y ago
  Shanghai subway closing at 11pm or earlier is a huge inconvenience, especially for destinations on Pudong side where distances between locations are quite big. It is generally a big (positive) deal when a subway announces it can do late night services.
9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
NYC-style flat fare systems are actually quite unusual outside the US. Most of the world uses some type of zone or distance fares.
- flatfares 7y ago
  Zones are used for the light commuter rail service that connects to counties external to city limits. Inside city limits, the distances travelled are so compressed (even interborough), that most trips are less than ten minutes of actual train ride. Once you start dealing with zones, you also have to start operating on fixed schedules. The New York City system does have time tables but they don't really operate to the minute. The listed times are mostly just targets. More important is the frequency of trains, back to back trains (double capacity) with five minute frequencies during rush hour, and graveyard has 20 minute frequencies, everything else aims for ten minutes between each individual train. Again, most people are travelling less than 45 minutes on trains set for 30MPH speed limits. (Manhattan is only 20 miles long)
  - culturestate 7y ago
    Hong Kong is significantly smaller than even Manhattan and still employs distance-based fares quite successfully. I can go from my local station to the CBD (2 stops, around 5 minutes) and it costs roughly US$0.60; another 5 stops on the same line to get to my favorite restaurant bumps the journey to about 12 minutes and costs me ~$0.90. Crossing the harbor from Hong Kong island to the Kowloon peninsula takes less time but actually costs more (almost $1.50) thanks to tunnel fees. On a side note, public transit timing is one thing that has been irrevocably ruined for me by living in HK. On my usual travel routes the train frequency is typically 2-3 minutes and during rush hour it’s on the order of 30 seconds - the next train often enters the platform just as the last car of the previous train leaves. Granted it does shut for a few hours each night, but even the other top Asian metro systems can't match it. When I used to spend a lot of time in NYC (before moving to Asia) I had no problem with the subways; now it’s a significant consideration for me when thinking about moving.
    - 7y ago
zdragnar 7y ago
I suppose my use of the word "ticket" could have been swapped for "fare" but the point stands: https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/09/22/judge-rules-random-stops-to-check-fares-on-trimet-are-unconstitutional/ https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/09/22/judge-rules-ran... https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/424036-329673-lawmaker-wants-to-take-fare-checks-away-from-transit-police https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/424036-329673-lawmaker-wa... https://www.citylab.com/perspective/2019/02/washington-fare-evasion-free-public-transport-train-ticket/582160/ https://www.citylab.com/perspective/2019/02/washington-fare-... https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/11/02/cleveland-police-enforcement-of-transit-proof-of-payment-ruled-unconstitutional/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/11/02/cleveland-police-enfo... https://ggwash.org/view/69171/a-new-report-highlights-the-stark-racial-disparities-in-metro-fare-enforcem https://ggwash.org/view/69171/a-new-report-highlights-the-st... Those were the top of a very brief search. If I looked a bit more, I'm sure I could find more examples backing up my original claim. There's nothing ridiculous about the assertion at all.
zhte415 7y ago
In most major cities you swipe a metro card that calculates the fare where you got on and got off, or applies zoned travel on a daily, weekly, monthly, or annual rate. In some cities you can just swipe an NFC bank card. To have a 'ticket to ride' seems ridiculous.
- superhuzza 7y ago
  That's not very accurate. In North America, most cities are based on a flat rate. Most cities in Europe and Asia work based on distance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio

thaumasiotes 7y ago

In Shanghai, it's fare based, but the fare is definitely not the same no matter how far you're going. The fare is determined as a function of where you enter the system and where you leave, with longer trips being more expensive. There's no time limit; one entry will let you stay in the subway system all day. But you can't just live on the trains, because they shut down at night. Somehow I suspect that if Shanghai can shut down the subway overnight, New York, with half the ridership, could handle doing so too, so the question "why is this allowed to happen" seems valid.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
Not sure about Shanghai, but in most countries there are (generous) time limits associated with fares, measured from first entry. Obviously this isn't enforced "in flight", but the gate will not let you out when you try to leave and you'll need to explain to staff why you've just spent 4 hours traveling one stop -- since odds are you actually went somewhere else and jumped the turnstile both ways.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  I don't think there is a limit in Shanghai. A few years back there was a heat wave and the subway stations were full of people who just came to hang out where there was air conditioning. Jumping the turnstile is... not common.
ummwhat 7y ago
Because 24 hour train service is a massive convince that reduces car dependence and drunk driving. Why does Shanghai metro shut down at 11pm? So early. Impossible to have a fun night out.
- wasdfff 7y ago
  In nyc they have multiple tunnels for the same line, so one can be maintained while the other is active. Cities that shut down their metro do their maintenance then, because their lines don’t have a backup track.
zhte415 7y ago
Shanghai subway closing at 11pm or earlier is a huge inconvenience, especially for destinations on Pudong side where distances between locations are quite big. It is generally a big (positive) deal when a subway announces it can do late night services.

9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago

NYC-style flat fare systems are actually quite unusual outside the US. Most of the world uses some type of zone or distance fares.

flatfares 7y ago
Zones are used for the light commuter rail service that connects to counties external to city limits. Inside city limits, the distances travelled are so compressed (even interborough), that most trips are less than ten minutes of actual train ride. Once you start dealing with zones, you also have to start operating on fixed schedules. The New York City system does have time tables but they don't really operate to the minute. The listed times are mostly just targets. More important is the frequency of trains, back to back trains (double capacity) with five minute frequencies during rush hour, and graveyard has 20 minute frequencies, everything else aims for ten minutes between each individual train. Again, most people are travelling less than 45 minutes on trains set for 30MPH speed limits. (Manhattan is only 20 miles long)
- culturestate 7y ago
  Hong Kong is significantly smaller than even Manhattan and still employs distance-based fares quite successfully. I can go from my local station to the CBD (2 stops, around 5 minutes) and it costs roughly US$0.60; another 5 stops on the same line to get to my favorite restaurant bumps the journey to about 12 minutes and costs me ~$0.90. Crossing the harbor from Hong Kong island to the Kowloon peninsula takes less time but actually costs more (almost $1.50) thanks to tunnel fees. On a side note, public transit timing is one thing that has been irrevocably ruined for me by living in HK. On my usual travel routes the train frequency is typically 2-3 minutes and during rush hour it’s on the order of 30 seconds - the next train often enters the platform just as the last car of the previous train leaves. Granted it does shut for a few hours each night, but even the other top Asian metro systems can't match it. When I used to spend a lot of time in NYC (before moving to Asia) I had no problem with the subways; now it’s a significant consideration for me when thinking about moving.
  - 7y ago

zdragnar 7y ago

I suppose my use of the word "ticket" could have been swapped for "fare" but the point stands: https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/09/22/judge-rules-random-stops-to-check-fares-on-trimet-are-unconstitutional/ https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/2018/09/22/judge-rules-ran... https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/424036-329673-lawmaker-wants-to-take-fare-checks-away-from-transit-police https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/424036-329673-lawmaker-wa... https://www.citylab.com/perspective/2019/02/washington-fare-evasion-free-public-transport-train-ticket/582160/ https://www.citylab.com/perspective/2019/02/washington-fare-... https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/11/02/cleveland-police-enforcement-of-transit-proof-of-payment-ruled-unconstitutional/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/11/02/cleveland-police-enfo... https://ggwash.org/view/69171/a-new-report-highlights-the-stark-racial-disparities-in-metro-fare-enforcem https://ggwash.org/view/69171/a-new-report-highlights-the-st... Those were the top of a very brief search. If I looked a bit more, I'm sure I could find more examples backing up my original claim. There's nothing ridiculous about the assertion at all.

zhte415 7y ago

In most major cities you swipe a metro card that calculates the fare where you got on and got off, or applies zoned travel on a daily, weekly, monthly, or annual rate. In some cities you can just swipe an NFC bank card. To have a 'ticket to ride' seems ridiculous.

superhuzza 7y ago
That's not very accurate. In North America, most cities are based on a flat rate. Most cities in Europe and Asia work based on distance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio