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H-1B visa: Government says work ban for H-4 spouses coming this month

145 points by Areading314 7y ago

duxup 7y ago
I wish they would just set the H-1B minimum pay to $120k a year or something.
- ones_and_zeros 7y ago
  Yes, auctions will be similarly gamed. I think one easy thing to do to ensure that small cos and rural areas still have access is to require all h1b hires to be level 4, the highest level. As it stands now more than 70% are hired at levels 1 and 2 (2018 data), which are essentially "below average" which is weird for a program aimed at bringing in those with hard to find skills.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I was browsing the H-1B data out there. Some jobs seemed like borderline first level customer service jobs when I went looking at what was at the location listed.....way way not the kind of job that is hard to find people for... provided you pay reasonably well.
    - vsskanth 7y ago
      It's a bimodal distribution. H1B doesn't really have a job market test. You just need to justify it's a job that requires a bachelor's degree and pays whatever the DOL wage data says should be the prevailing wage for that classification. It's not that difficult to game the system by playing around with job level, title and location and getting away with the lowest possible pay. This is basically the business model of staffing agencies and contractors. It's also being used by many genuine employers looking for talent and highly specialized skills. Cost isn't a concern here as their business model relies on making the best product.
  - akavi 7y ago
    How will auctions be gamed?
    - viraptor 7y ago
      Unless it's specified to be 120k hard cash, it would turn into 120k total compensation including company accommodation worth 60k/year, various practically-not-claimable options, or others ways.
      - akavi 7y ago
        The law would have to specifically carve in consideration of in-kind benefits for that to happen, and I see no reason to do so. Why would it?
        viraptor 7y ago
        The current "prevailing wage determination" includes fringe benefits already. There's definitely a way to play with those to redirect it back to the company.
        jogjayr 7y ago
        I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, unless you have a citation for this. The base pay has to be more than prevailing wage. You can't count any kind of bonus or stock-based compensation. This is based on personal experience.
        viraptor 7y ago
        This is just from a light research, so please correct if there are better links, but https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/h-1b_faqs#1 https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/h-1b_faqs#1 > The H 1B also requires that the H-1B employer pay the H-1B employee the prevailing wage or the actual wage, whichever is higher. And https://www.dol.gov/whd/h1bworkers.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/h1bworkers.htm > and you must be offered fringe benefits on the same basis as offered to U.S. employees. But now that I read it again, they may be separate things that don't sum up. Is that what you meant?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  This is a silly idea because only a small percentage of professions enjoy such high salaries, so the only thing you would do if you implement something like that is end up with a disproportionate number of people with such jobs. Furthermore, companies in certain geographic areas (e.g. Silicon Valley) would rejoice, because they would be able to hire an even greater number of foreign workers before the quotas get filled. There are much, much better ways to fix the issues with H-1B visas. The first and most important thing that needs to happen is no longer tying the visa to the employer. Once we make it so that people on H-1B can freely move around in the labor market during the course of their visa, they would automatically gain the ability to command higher wages, which would result in employers rely on foreign labor less (since it would be more expensive), and only hiring foreigners who are actually skilled and exceptional.
  - duxup 7y ago
    I have no problem if only a few people really earn it now. It is supposed to be a program for highly skilled people.
    - solveit 7y ago
      The problem is that skill and salary don't correlate as much as it should. As bad as we are at taxing negative externalities, we're terrible at rewarding positive externalities.
      - duxup 7y ago
        As it is we are bringing in folks on H1Bs who appear to be borderline first level customer support (this was something I ran into browsing the online DB a while back). At least at 120k you know that the company involved really does value this employee to some extent. They're not likely to spend 120k on someone easily hired locally for far less.
        davidw 7y ago
        If you don't bring them here, it's not like the jobs can't be moved there.
- paxys 7y ago
  So 100% of them end up in the Bay Area?
  - duxup 7y ago
    Fine by me.
  - protastus 7y ago
    The first and second largest public companies in the world by market cap hire a lot of H-1Bs and are not in the Bay Area and pay more than this proposed floor.
- conanbatt 7y ago
  Why put a limit at all.
  - duxup 7y ago
    It is supposed to be a program for highly skilled people, but is often abused to just bring in cheaper people. If they are really difficult spots to fill and important, them the pay should be no issue.
    - conanbatt 7y ago
      There are more than 80k skilled people in a 7billion population planet.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - duxup 7y ago
        Probably, but I don't think the H-1B program is meant to operate as a service for those people. It's meant for companies to bring some in if needed.
        conanbatt 7y ago
        Company demand >>> 80k.
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > It is supposed to be a program for highly skilled people No, it's a program for employers. > but is often abused to just bring in cheaper people. That's what it is obviously designed for, within limits, and any contrary explanation requires hoping the person you selling it to doesn't understand the relation between supply, demand, and price. > If they are really difficult spots to fill and important, them the pay should be no issue. Pay is always an issue; importance just sets the exact level of pay at which it becomes not worth it to hire.
ones_and_zeros 7y ago
I dont think this will pass and my best guess is this is the administration getting FAANG to play ball. But... if it does, how will it work? I did read the article but it wasnt clear if current h4 employees would be grandfathered? I work at a place with a few hundred h1b engineers and it seems their spouses fill the product/project management roles. If they arent grandfathered it'd be catastrophic for the company I work for, never mind places the size of FAANG companies.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > and it seems their spouses fill the product/project management roles Could they get their own H-1B visa in their own right like anyone else would? Why do they need to piggy back off their spouse’s visa?
  - what_ever 7y ago
    Because H-1B visa has had lottery for a few years. With over 200k applicants for 65K + 20K (advanced degree) visas given out.
    - woodson 7y ago
      The 20K are not for advanced degrees but for graduates of U.S. universities.
  - SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
    because it's cruel and pointless to deny them entry if they're going to be provided for?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - maldeh 7y ago
    There's currently a 32% selection rate on the H-1B lottery, regardless of whether your application's even eligible or not. The best case (with OPT extensions right after college, not applicable for already-working people; and also assuming selection rates don't further decline) is 69% selection rate after 3 attempts. I don't imagine hundreds of thousands of H-4 holders like those odds.
yalogin 7y ago
I thought they weren't allowed to work for a while now. How is this new?
- duxup 7y ago
  Lots of talk but not legislation.
- vsskanth 7y ago
  Initially they weren't. Then there was an obama era executive order that allowed work authorization for dependents of H1B, provided they have an approved green card petition. Mostly only Indians use it because they have the biggest backlog in getting green cards. The current administration plans to revoke it so its going through its procedures.
  - yalogin 7y ago
    Ah that’s the part I was missing. So people on H4 cannot work until they get their green cards in hand. Thanks for the explanation.
NTDF9 7y ago
This is basically the government discouraging family oriented people (perhaps the exact model immigrants that most countries want).
- nonamechicken 7y ago
  Considering that 93 percent of the approximately 100,000 H4 spouses are women from India, its clear at whom it is targeted. And the changes in h1b seems to be working as indented. >The US is no longer seen as a plum posting by senior IT services employees (of Indian IT companies). https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-service-firms-can-adapt-to-the-h-1b-visa-squeeze-1558341524290.html https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-serv... >IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States (US) for part of its growing employee attrition and said that it would introduce a "new value proposition" to help retain employees. https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-employee-attrition-infosys-blames-h-1b-visa-denials-for-high-attrition/story/337437.html https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-e...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dominotw 7y ago
    > IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States (US) for part of its growing employee attrition lol so funny. their main perk was chance to get h-1b visa and to blame us govt for not giving it to them.
    - nonamechicken 7y ago
      I don't think they were blaming the government. Just citing it as one of the issues in their quarterly shareholder report. One of the main ways these companies retain people was this: give the employee promise of onsite deputation if you work for 1-2 years in this project. Now the companies are forced to give them a decent raise or promotion or better projects. It sucks for 2 people I know who had been working like that for the last 3-4 years. Their work day usually ends at midnight and sometimes 1 am-2am (instead of 6.45 pm). They stayed in that project because they thought one day they could go to US. Their employer applied for their visas, but got denied.
exwiki 7y ago
This is just sad.
andr 7y ago
It would have been much smarter to have spouse visas count towards the H1B quota, while guaranteeing that if one partner is selected in the lottery, the other is picked, too. Right now, if a couple with active careers want to move to the US together, chances are one spouse has to abandon their career for several years and not be allowed to contribute to the economy. Or, the couple will just go elsewhere.
- chipperyman573 7y ago
  If being married would double your chances of being picked then that would just lead to a bunch of people getting married to get a H-1B. Similar to a green card marriage but neither of the people are citizens already. I agree that this is absolutely a problem but there would have to be a different solution.
  - syrrim 7y ago
    Could be corrected for by having couples enter the lottery as a unit, or halving the odds for each person entering as part of a couple.
    - candiodari 7y ago
      Check what happens when you multiply odds. That will mean the odds for any married person to get an H1B take a nosedive or essentially never happens if there is real competition.
      - chipperyman573 7y ago
        If each person has half the chance of a normal person and since if either one are chosen then the other is chosen, wouldn't their odds be (1/2 + 1/2) = 1 unweighted chance of being selected? Multiplying the odds by 2 (making your chance 2/4) lets you use this analogy: If you had a bag with 2 marbles labeled 1, along with and one 2 and one 3 marble, your chance of drawing either a 2 or a 3 is the same as drawing the 1 marble. This still works if you add more marbles to the mix, as long as they're weighted to be pulled twice as often as the 2 or 3 marble.
docker_up 7y ago
In an era of ultra-low unemployment rates, I don't see who this is protecting. If anything it's hurting US businesses by denying willing workers.
- adbge 7y ago
  Labor participation rates and wages remain low.
  - wmil 7y ago
    Prime age labour force participation is looking up lately: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/08/02/the-recent-rebound-in-prime-age-labor-force-participation/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/08/02/the-recen...
- mancerayder 7y ago
  Aren't unemployment rates in the U.S. calculated on folks who report, for example when they apply for unemployment benefits? If you simply give up after a year or two, it's not counted, unless something has changed recently. Thus the "participation rate" comment of the other reply.
  - baron816 7y ago
    No, it’s more complicated than that. The BLS does a robust survey. They also track discouraged workers who have left the labor force. https://www.bls.gov/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/home.htm
    - salawat 7y ago
      I've been thumbing through their survey methodologies, and am actually hard pressed to find anyone in any social circle who has directly or even indirectly to the best of their knowledge participated in these surveys. Specifically the CPS which tracks the unemployment vs. employment rates. Given that it takes the form of a monthly survey, I'd expect more people to actually remember having done so. Now I could understand inferring employment via tax documents cross referenced with unemployment papers, but to my understanding that level of information sharing is not generally done. Where do the statistics come from? Here's the answer from BLS's Current Population Survey FAQ at w.r.t. where the data comes from. https://www.bls.gov/cps/faq.htm#Ques2 https://www.bls.gov/cps/faq.htm#Ques2 >Because unemployment insurance records relate only to people who have applied for such benefits, and since it is impractical to count every unemployed person each month, the government conducts a monthly survey called the Current Population Survey (CPS) to measure the extent of unemployment in the country. The CPS has been conducted in the United States every month since 1940, when it began as a Work Projects Administration program. In 1942, the U.S. Census Bureau took over responsibility for the CPS. The survey has been expanded and modified several times since then. So what do the statistics being gathered actually represent and where do they come from? More digging required... Ah, here it is. Survey methodology. ho! https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/technical-documentation/methodology.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/technical-docume... I'm not super Survey methodology savvy, (more familiar with anti-patterns for it honestly, and figuring out when the Map starts diverging from the landscape), but in terms of what it is actually measuring, and how much divergence is introduced between reality and the convenient model inferred from the survey's statistical finger waggling... I leave that to the more Stats inclined among us. It seems an okay methodology, but it doesn't strike me in terms of being the most accurate measurement, merely getting enough data that someone feels that the divergences can be safely tucked under the rug. I will say, the folks putting this together seem to have done a great job documenting it. I wish my developers could be relied upon to do as such.
bezoisevil 7y ago
Anything to deter H1B is great in my book. I'm sick of these guys coming over here and taking our jobs when we're perfectly capable of doing it ourselves for the same pay. It's time companies stopped skimming and started paying American workers
sys_64738 7y ago
This is morally and ethically wrong. If the H4 visa holder has the right to work in the past then you can't revoke it. Those already working should be grandfathered in.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- RappingBoomer 7y ago
  don't worry...this is just trump throwing a sop to his base...pretending to follow through on his campaign promises...this work ban will almost certainly never be implemented
  - Balgair 7y ago
    For proof that the administration is mostly hot air: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/05/trump-aides-ignore-president/589489/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/05/trump-a... Much can be said about the timelines, motivations, and downstream effects here, but the thesis that Donny's administration is largely negligent seems to be more true than false. It does feel as if the Treasury Department has become little more than three HS interns in a back room furiously trying to figure out how Quicken works.
- masonic 7y ago
  It's legally correct. The H-4 expansion Obama did, just like his DACA expansion, was illegal, as the Fifth Circuit has already established. The Trump administration is simply following the law by withdrawing the illegal expansion that the DHS lacked legal authority to do. The H-4 specific lawsuit from Save Jobs USA is using the same principle from the Fifth Circuit decision. The legal way to have done H-4 or DACA was with appropriate legislation during the time the Democrats held the Presidency, the House, and a filibuster-proof Senate majority... yet they chose to do absolutely no changes in immigration law (DACA or other amnesty, H-4 or other expansion). In fact, Senator Schumer railed against amnesty himself in multiple floor speeches. Now, ask yourself why that is.
wyxuan 7y ago
H4 is notorious for not allowing spouses to leave their abusive H-1B partners (because they are dependent). Working is a way to allow them to have some breathing room when it comes to these relationships.
- the_common_man 7y ago
  The problem is more complicated because most Indians have arranged marriages where the women has a bit of less power to begin with
paxys 7y ago
Even if the administration does actually issue a ruling (which they have been sitting on for years now), it will immediately be challenged in courts and remain there indefinitely. Like everything else it's meant to be a talking point for Trump at his rallies, nothing more.
dhosek 7y ago
Just another purely racist move on the part of this administration.
- donedealomg 7y ago
  this has nothing to do with race try to use your brain for a second please
- jjtheblunt 7y ago
  Why is that your interpretation rather than just closing a loophole? Are you saying there are not many immigrants of English ancestry (Britain, Australia, Canada) who are entirely "white" being inconvenienced by this?
  - tsycho 7y ago
    (I am going to assume you are genuinely curious and will answer sincerely. Also, this topic has enough easy to Google sources for my claims below that I am not bothering to cite them, primarily because I am on my phone. However I am happy to add them later if that becomes the only point of contention) Actually there aren't (white people being affected). This primarily affects Indians and to a lesser extent, Chinese immigrants. For every one else, if you are here on a H1, and your spouse wants to work, you apply for a green card and get it in about a year. Now you and your spouse can work (and NOT WORK without consequences) for the next 10 years, after which you have to renew your green card. If you are from India, your green card queue is currently estimated to be 30-100 years long. This is because green cards have country of birth quotas that ignore the population of countries. During this wait time, your spouse cannot work unless they can find another employer to sponsor an independent H1B for them. Also, you have to renew your H1 every 3 years, and if you lose your job, you have less than a month to find a new one, else you have to leave the US. The Obama administration started the H4 work permit for the above situation, for people whose spouses are stuck in an insanely long green card queue. The number of people actually on H4 work permits is a miniscule percentage of the US labor force, such that it is not going to change any economic dynamics. But it is a massive blow to the unfortunate spouses who rely on it. At which point, the most likely logical explanation for this step is that the Trump administration thinks that it will please his primary voter base, and the actual distribution of the affected people suggest (even if it is hard to prove) that racism played a role.
webninja 7y ago
First they take our jobs, now they take our women? I’m kidding and I know it’s offensive but really they’ll just be sending a bunch of single Indian dudes over here now so what do you expect will happen?
ycombonator 7y ago
Visa is not a right, it's a privilege. Please be aware, entering the United States is a privilege, not a right. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend%2C-relative%2C-etc.-denied-entry-to-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend%2C....
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Seems like an unjust way to retract a privilege, then.
- solveit 7y ago
  I have no idea why you're citing a government website on an ethical question. You realize that law and policy is just something a bunch of people decided was a good idea? The distinction between rights versus privileges, insofar as it is defined by law and policy, has nothing to do with ethics.
  - throwaway8879 7y ago
    So "law and policy is just something a bunch of people decided was a good idea". What do you think ethics is? If we're going to be really strict, then everything about humans is "just a bunch of people decided was a good idea".
    - arcticbull 7y ago
      The criticism is that using what the government said to justify what the government then said when both are opinions is weak and circular.
      - ymolodtsov 7y ago
        And government’s opinions change far more frequently than ethics.
        arcticbull 7y ago
cletus 7y ago
The administration had been making some cautiously encouraging noises about fixes to this system. I wonder now if those voices were drowned out or the administration is just schizophrenic and this is the work of another part of the administration. This right-to-work for H4s isn't the problem. Don't get me wrong: it sucks for those affected and it's arbitrarily capricious but it's not the problem. Oh and BTW the US immigration system as a whole is arbitrarily capricious. This is some combination of "they're stealing our jobs" and an effort to discourage immigration in general, psychologically lumping those that sneak across the border with highly-skilled workers into the same bucket. Some examples: - If your green card is lost or stolen it costs $400 to replace it but, worse, it takes 8-12+ months at current queue times to get a replacement. The US government can get a US citizen a passport in a day if it needs to. - Lose it while overseas and you're in for a world of hurt to re-enter the US (and then go through the above process to get it replaced). - Your Labor Certification ("LC") can get audited. This sounds fine but it's really not. USCIS has a stated goal of not having applicants figure out their auditing criteria so they RANDOMLY audit a some applications. The total number of audited LCs is estimated to be ~30%. - If your LC is audited, this just randomly adds 12-18+ months to your process depending on how many times USCIS can send you Requests for Evidence ("RFEs"). Yes this can happen more than once. Personally I know of one case where there were 3 separate RFEs for a FAANG engineer that added >2.5 years to the process. - Green cards have quotas by country of birth. H1Bs do not. This, primarily, is the cause of the massive logjam particularly for India but, to a lesser extent, also for China, Mexico and the Phillipines (depending on the visa category). - It is common for applications at various stages to get stuck where nothing happens for months for no real reason. This is so common that there is a procedure for dealing with it: writing to your local Senator or congressman and having their office file an inquiry with USCIS. Not everyone knows this but this tends to unstick things within a week. Why it gets stuck in the first place is a mystery. - Once your case is assigned to a particular examiner, you're stuck with that examiner. They will process their applications on a FIFO basis and one examiner may be particularly slow compared to another for no readily apparent reason. Worse, different examiners will apply the same rule differently in that in a given situation one will ask for an additional form where another wouldn't. And yes that adds another 3-6 months to the process as your updated submission goes to the back of their queue. - There are several time windows you need to be aware of. With sufficient delays some of your supporting documentation may be out of date. And bingo, that's another go around. - Getting married on a green card won't really help your spouse at all. There are years long delays for sponsoring your spouse and they'll enjoy no relevant status before then. The general advice is you'll start this process and finish it probably after naturalization (which is a far quicker process). So what is the core problem that needs to be fixed? Easy. The abuse of the system by Indian IT outsourcing companies. For these companies, the 10+ year delays in getting a green card for Indian-born people is a feature not a bug because that's longer they can keep them in what is not that far from indentured servitude. These people aren't highly-skilled and aren't highly-paid. They're taking spots that could otherwise go to highly-skilled and highly-paid people at FAANG type companies. Other commenters are right in that a simple minimum pay could have a lot of loopholes. Being "total compensation" with inflated values on "benefits" is just one way. Another is, say, overcharging for services that are described as optional but really aren't, like food or accomodation. Want to see examples of how desperate people are trapped by these sorts of "fees" into essentially perpetual debt? Look no further than India's brick kilns [1]. [1] https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-bondage/ https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-bondage/
josh5555 7y ago
It does seem like India in particular has gamed the system. I can see the logic in this in the big picture. I don't see why people are calling this evil and cruel, it is just a way to help create jobs for citizens. Most countries make it very difficult for foreign workers. The US is still the most liberal and generous even after this small tweak.
mrtksn 7y ago
I find the working visa concept ridiculous. Why would a nationality be a topic in the hiring process? It's ridiculous to have the government involved in the hiring process and the first vetting step towards employment being the immigration office. Yes, I understand the problems that limitless free movement might create but it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or people who say that want meritocracy to discuss only the implementation details of the visa system in the context of exceptions(i.e. you cannot work in this country except if you personally meet the following criteria). Why not create a system that is fair at the core, something like "your passport countries' democracy score, worker rights, environmental protection standards and human rights need to be in the same range as the country you want to work at". The visa-free travel and visa-free working right essentially boil down to this anyway, why not remove all the exceptions and let people optimize their countries towards these metrics if they want to work in some other country? In the current form, immigration is painful for the immigrants and doesn't do any good for the countries that send those immigrants.
- jldugger 7y ago
  > it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or people who say that want meritocracy What ever gave you the impression that the "America #1" crowd was either of those things?
  - mrtksn 7y ago
    The populists say all the time that they want meritocracy and complain that those women/minorities/immigrants are hired based on their gender/race/passport instead of their skills. They are populist probably because these opinions are popular.
    - nl 7y ago
      I think you'll find that the "America First" crowd and the "Meritocracy" crowd are listening to different parts of the arguments from the same people, and just hearing what they want to hear. I think there is a strand in their argument that being American is a merit in itself, but this isn't usually stated explicitly except in forms like "Americans for American Jobs". I'm not arguing this makes any logical sense though - it doesn't.
anonymous_i 7y ago
I will throw a different perspective here on why tightening regulations on H-4 spouse work is important: - Fact is everyone comes to the US to have a better economic life. - Even asylum seekers, would want to move to the US over any other progressive European nation , because, American Dream, easy upwards mobility, diversity. This is a personal observation. Let me shed some light on how it works for Indian people. You can extrapolate it to other entities too. - Indian girls in general conveniently marry a US living husband of their parents choice(not all but many), and compete for the same jobs with kids who finished their Masters Degrees here. - H-1B visa system is fucked up. Infosys and Wipro and TCS ship tons of their employees to the US.These people work at a price less than the current market price. - This is bad for three reasons: - Kids don't want to come to the United States to do their Masters because, job market is tight. Its bad for schools and kids too. Schools for those foreign dollars, for kids- its important to have an exposure to outside world - this helps shape world view in a tremendously good way. - These people are employed mostly to replace existing American workers. - From my observations, the reason I am biased in favouring kids coming here for Masters is because, with in the time it takes to finish their education, and the time it takes to find a job, they imbibe American culture. This may sound silly, but it is very important. These people at some time will become citizens and will become part of national discourse. - Contractors shipped by Infosys and Wipro and TCS could never be part of that. It is hardly possible. Again , its a personal observation. - So , how do all these things tie together - Someone who finishes his Masters in the United States is expected to find a job with in three months of his OPT(Optional Practical Training) start date. - Now these people are mostly by themselves and invested heavily for their education. No reason why these people flock to so called 'consultancies'. - Compare that to the spouses of existing H-1B visa holders, who never invested anything here. No cultural investment, nor education. They have a security to live here for as long as their relatively smart husband is allowed to live. With unlimited amount of time compared to some one with a Masters degree, they are at a disproportionate advantage. - People finishing Masters should be given precedence over H4 spouses and H-1B's(for reasons above) hired by outsourcing companies. - There is more to it than we know.For all the xenophobia, this administration is displaying there are times, they are not wrong.
jtagx 7y ago
And down goes the GDP and tax income for the society
- the_common_man 7y ago
  Doubt it. This program only started 3-4 years ago.
rdl 7y ago
I wonder if a viable H-1B reform would be a mix of a much higher cash wage floor (maybe indexed by geography, but $80-100k across the US, and $150-200k in a place like SF or NY), a requirement that they be hired by firms with at least n (=10?) US citizen or PR employees for every H1B (thus solving the Wipro/infosys problem), and then eliminating the quotas, making them H-1B portable across employers with a ~90 day window, etc. The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" is a common international founder/key employee visa requirement. Maybe make it 10x payroll for citizen/pr vs. h-1b, but there should also be an "n jobs over $x/yr ratio" to prevent the single investor/owner having a $30mm/yr salary, and then 30 x $100k H-1B jobs) Otherwise, I'm in favor of scrapping H-1B in favor of an explicitly loosened O-1 which largely meets the same purposes as above.
cosmodisk 7y ago
Such a moronic idea.I appreciate there's an argument on who should be allowed to enter the country and live there legally, however this isn't part of it. What is the benefit for that person not to work? How does the state or Americans benefit from it?This is second only to the UK,where refugees are not allowed to work,even though the applications take years to be processed.
simplecomplex 7y ago
More hateful unnecessary government regulation that harms people just trying to work and make a life for themselves.
jmpman 7y ago
There is a major problem with tech employment in this country. I used to support a tech heavy company in St Louis, a city with over 50% black population. What percentage of the employees were black? Guess it depends upon what percentage of employees were security guards. The US minority population is dramatically underrepresented in tech. Reduce the competition for entry level tech positions, and their numbers will grow.
elisharobinson 7y ago
i dont know why this is an issue
stunt 7y ago
H1B is the US economy nuclear weapon. especially in tech, science, and research. The US imports top talents while the country hasn't paid any subsidies for their education, development, medicine, growth, childbirth and you name it. And they have to come and spend money to establish their life after relocation. It is necessary to have a minimum wage to make sure companies will priorities local talents. The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" model sometimes create busy-work but I think that is a fair combination to wage floor. I believe it is important to do everything to help integrate skilled workers to society. Make them feel they belong. They are more valuable assets if they stay. Of course it has to be in accordance with population and unemployment metrics. There is this annoying double standard currently. If they invest and spend in the US we complain, and if they remittance to the home country again we complain. And now this work ban is like telling them mine and run because we don't want you here.
robbrit 7y ago
Can someone clarify for me? When I was on an H-1B, I was explicitly told that my wife who was on an H-4 was not allowed to work. What has changed?
throwaway082729 7y ago
Sigh. Will have to move to Canada or home after 17 years of living here. My kid, an American citizen, doesn't want to move but this is going to devastate my wife who has only recently started to work in the education field and I can't continue living here regardless of how much money I make.
- sieabahlpark 7y ago
  Sure if where you live is California. Plenty of other affordable states.
  - throwaway082729 7y ago
    Oh, affordability is not a problem at all.I make about $500k/yr. My wife cannot work if this change takes effect and it'll take a huge mental toll on her and on our relationship.
    - burfog 7y ago
      With many people, the opposite is the case. Work interferes with the relationship. Suppose work is 8 hours per day, but there is also 8 hours of housework. If you split evenly, which isn't normal, that gives 12 hours per person with you both working outside the home. That goes down to just 8 if only one person works. You then have more time for the relationship. You might need to make a cultural shift. You'd need to show appreciation for housework. If you're in the habit of looking down on people who do that, or if she herself is, then things won't go well.
      - throwaway082729 7y ago
        I do all the laundry, cook on weekends (and on weekdays if required), etc. That's not the point. My wife wants to be able to pursue a career of her own not just for money. She won't be able to do this without a H4 EAD
        7y ago

145 points by Areading314 7y ago

duxup 7y ago

I wish they would just set the H-1B minimum pay to $120k a year or something.

ones_and_zeros 7y ago
Yes, auctions will be similarly gamed. I think one easy thing to do to ensure that small cos and rural areas still have access is to require all h1b hires to be level 4, the highest level. As it stands now more than 70% are hired at levels 1 and 2 (2018 data), which are essentially "below average" which is weird for a program aimed at bringing in those with hard to find skills.
- duxup 7y ago
  I was browsing the H-1B data out there. Some jobs seemed like borderline first level customer service jobs when I went looking at what was at the location listed.....way way not the kind of job that is hard to find people for... provided you pay reasonably well.
  - vsskanth 7y ago
    It's a bimodal distribution. H1B doesn't really have a job market test. You just need to justify it's a job that requires a bachelor's degree and pays whatever the DOL wage data says should be the prevailing wage for that classification. It's not that difficult to game the system by playing around with job level, title and location and getting away with the lowest possible pay. This is basically the business model of staffing agencies and contractors. It's also being used by many genuine employers looking for talent and highly specialized skills. Cost isn't a concern here as their business model relies on making the best product.
- akavi 7y ago
  How will auctions be gamed?
  - viraptor 7y ago
    Unless it's specified to be 120k hard cash, it would turn into 120k total compensation including company accommodation worth 60k/year, various practically-not-claimable options, or others ways.
    - akavi 7y ago
      The law would have to specifically carve in consideration of in-kind benefits for that to happen, and I see no reason to do so. Why would it?
      - viraptor 7y ago
        The current "prevailing wage determination" includes fringe benefits already. There's definitely a way to play with those to redirect it back to the company.
        jogjayr 7y ago
        I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, unless you have a citation for this. The base pay has to be more than prevailing wage. You can't count any kind of bonus or stock-based compensation. This is based on personal experience.
        viraptor 7y ago
        This is just from a light research, so please correct if there are better links, but https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/h-1b_faqs#1 https://internationaloffice.berkeley.edu/h-1b_faqs#1 > The H 1B also requires that the H-1B employer pay the H-1B employee the prevailing wage or the actual wage, whichever is higher. And https://www.dol.gov/whd/h1bworkers.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/h1bworkers.htm > and you must be offered fringe benefits on the same basis as offered to U.S. employees. But now that I read it again, they may be separate things that don't sum up. Is that what you meant?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
enraged_camel 7y ago
This is a silly idea because only a small percentage of professions enjoy such high salaries, so the only thing you would do if you implement something like that is end up with a disproportionate number of people with such jobs. Furthermore, companies in certain geographic areas (e.g. Silicon Valley) would rejoice, because they would be able to hire an even greater number of foreign workers before the quotas get filled. There are much, much better ways to fix the issues with H-1B visas. The first and most important thing that needs to happen is no longer tying the visa to the employer. Once we make it so that people on H-1B can freely move around in the labor market during the course of their visa, they would automatically gain the ability to command higher wages, which would result in employers rely on foreign labor less (since it would be more expensive), and only hiring foreigners who are actually skilled and exceptional.
- duxup 7y ago
  I have no problem if only a few people really earn it now. It is supposed to be a program for highly skilled people.
  - solveit 7y ago
    The problem is that skill and salary don't correlate as much as it should. As bad as we are at taxing negative externalities, we're terrible at rewarding positive externalities.
    - duxup 7y ago
      As it is we are bringing in folks on H1Bs who appear to be borderline first level customer support (this was something I ran into browsing the online DB a while back). At least at 120k you know that the company involved really does value this employee to some extent. They're not likely to spend 120k on someone easily hired locally for far less.
      - davidw 7y ago
        If you don't bring them here, it's not like the jobs can't be moved there.
paxys 7y ago
So 100% of them end up in the Bay Area?
- duxup 7y ago
  Fine by me.
- protastus 7y ago
  The first and second largest public companies in the world by market cap hire a lot of H-1Bs and are not in the Bay Area and pay more than this proposed floor.
conanbatt 7y ago
Why put a limit at all.
- duxup 7y ago
  It is supposed to be a program for highly skilled people, but is often abused to just bring in cheaper people. If they are really difficult spots to fill and important, them the pay should be no issue.
  - conanbatt 7y ago
    There are more than 80k skilled people in a 7billion population planet.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - duxup 7y ago
      Probably, but I don't think the H-1B program is meant to operate as a service for those people. It's meant for companies to bring some in if needed.
      - conanbatt 7y ago
        Company demand >>> 80k.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > It is supposed to be a program for highly skilled people No, it's a program for employers. > but is often abused to just bring in cheaper people. That's what it is obviously designed for, within limits, and any contrary explanation requires hoping the person you selling it to doesn't understand the relation between supply, demand, and price. > If they are really difficult spots to fill and important, them the pay should be no issue. Pay is always an issue; importance just sets the exact level of pay at which it becomes not worth it to hire.

ones_and_zeros 7y ago

I dont think this will pass and my best guess is this is the administration getting FAANG to play ball. But... if it does, how will it work? I did read the article but it wasnt clear if current h4 employees would be grandfathered? I work at a place with a few hundred h1b engineers and it seems their spouses fill the product/project management roles. If they arent grandfathered it'd be catastrophic for the company I work for, never mind places the size of FAANG companies.

chrisseaton 7y ago
> and it seems their spouses fill the product/project management roles Could they get their own H-1B visa in their own right like anyone else would? Why do they need to piggy back off their spouse’s visa?
- what_ever 7y ago
  Because H-1B visa has had lottery for a few years. With over 200k applicants for 65K + 20K (advanced degree) visas given out.
  - woodson 7y ago
    The 20K are not for advanced degrees but for graduates of U.S. universities.
- SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
  because it's cruel and pointless to deny them entry if they're going to be provided for?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- maldeh 7y ago
  There's currently a 32% selection rate on the H-1B lottery, regardless of whether your application's even eligible or not. The best case (with OPT extensions right after college, not applicable for already-working people; and also assuming selection rates don't further decline) is 69% selection rate after 3 attempts. I don't imagine hundreds of thousands of H-4 holders like those odds.

yalogin 7y ago

I thought they weren't allowed to work for a while now. How is this new?

duxup 7y ago
Lots of talk but not legislation.
vsskanth 7y ago
Initially they weren't. Then there was an obama era executive order that allowed work authorization for dependents of H1B, provided they have an approved green card petition. Mostly only Indians use it because they have the biggest backlog in getting green cards. The current administration plans to revoke it so its going through its procedures.
- yalogin 7y ago
  Ah that’s the part I was missing. So people on H4 cannot work until they get their green cards in hand. Thanks for the explanation.

NTDF9 7y ago

This is basically the government discouraging family oriented people (perhaps the exact model immigrants that most countries want).

nonamechicken 7y ago
Considering that 93 percent of the approximately 100,000 H4 spouses are women from India, its clear at whom it is targeted. And the changes in h1b seems to be working as indented. >The US is no longer seen as a plum posting by senior IT services employees (of Indian IT companies). https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-service-firms-can-adapt-to-the-h-1b-visa-squeeze-1558341524290.html https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-serv... >IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States (US) for part of its growing employee attrition and said that it would introduce a "new value proposition" to help retain employees. https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-employee-attrition-infosys-blames-h-1b-visa-denials-for-high-attrition/story/337437.html https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-e...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dominotw 7y ago
  > IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States (US) for part of its growing employee attrition lol so funny. their main perk was chance to get h-1b visa and to blame us govt for not giving it to them.
  - nonamechicken 7y ago
    I don't think they were blaming the government. Just citing it as one of the issues in their quarterly shareholder report. One of the main ways these companies retain people was this: give the employee promise of onsite deputation if you work for 1-2 years in this project. Now the companies are forced to give them a decent raise or promotion or better projects. It sucks for 2 people I know who had been working like that for the last 3-4 years. Their work day usually ends at midnight and sometimes 1 am-2am (instead of 6.45 pm). They stayed in that project because they thought one day they could go to US. Their employer applied for their visas, but got denied.

exwiki 7y ago

This is just sad.

andr 7y ago

It would have been much smarter to have spouse visas count towards the H1B quota, while guaranteeing that if one partner is selected in the lottery, the other is picked, too. Right now, if a couple with active careers want to move to the US together, chances are one spouse has to abandon their career for several years and not be allowed to contribute to the economy. Or, the couple will just go elsewhere.

chipperyman573 7y ago
If being married would double your chances of being picked then that would just lead to a bunch of people getting married to get a H-1B. Similar to a green card marriage but neither of the people are citizens already. I agree that this is absolutely a problem but there would have to be a different solution.
- syrrim 7y ago
  Could be corrected for by having couples enter the lottery as a unit, or halving the odds for each person entering as part of a couple.
  - candiodari 7y ago
    Check what happens when you multiply odds. That will mean the odds for any married person to get an H1B take a nosedive or essentially never happens if there is real competition.
    - chipperyman573 7y ago
      If each person has half the chance of a normal person and since if either one are chosen then the other is chosen, wouldn't their odds be (1/2 + 1/2) = 1 unweighted chance of being selected? Multiplying the odds by 2 (making your chance 2/4) lets you use this analogy: If you had a bag with 2 marbles labeled 1, along with and one 2 and one 3 marble, your chance of drawing either a 2 or a 3 is the same as drawing the 1 marble. This still works if you add more marbles to the mix, as long as they're weighted to be pulled twice as often as the 2 or 3 marble.

docker_up 7y ago

In an era of ultra-low unemployment rates, I don't see who this is protecting. If anything it's hurting US businesses by denying willing workers.

adbge 7y ago
Labor participation rates and wages remain low.
- wmil 7y ago
  Prime age labour force participation is looking up lately: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/08/02/the-recent-rebound-in-prime-age-labor-force-participation/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/08/02/the-recen...
mancerayder 7y ago
Aren't unemployment rates in the U.S. calculated on folks who report, for example when they apply for unemployment benefits? If you simply give up after a year or two, it's not counted, unless something has changed recently. Thus the "participation rate" comment of the other reply.
- baron816 7y ago
  No, it’s more complicated than that. The BLS does a robust survey. They also track discouraged workers who have left the labor force. https://www.bls.gov/home.htm https://www.bls.gov/home.htm
  - salawat 7y ago
    I've been thumbing through their survey methodologies, and am actually hard pressed to find anyone in any social circle who has directly or even indirectly to the best of their knowledge participated in these surveys. Specifically the CPS which tracks the unemployment vs. employment rates. Given that it takes the form of a monthly survey, I'd expect more people to actually remember having done so. Now I could understand inferring employment via tax documents cross referenced with unemployment papers, but to my understanding that level of information sharing is not generally done. Where do the statistics come from? Here's the answer from BLS's Current Population Survey FAQ at w.r.t. where the data comes from. https://www.bls.gov/cps/faq.htm#Ques2 https://www.bls.gov/cps/faq.htm#Ques2 >Because unemployment insurance records relate only to people who have applied for such benefits, and since it is impractical to count every unemployed person each month, the government conducts a monthly survey called the Current Population Survey (CPS) to measure the extent of unemployment in the country. The CPS has been conducted in the United States every month since 1940, when it began as a Work Projects Administration program. In 1942, the U.S. Census Bureau took over responsibility for the CPS. The survey has been expanded and modified several times since then. So what do the statistics being gathered actually represent and where do they come from? More digging required... Ah, here it is. Survey methodology. ho! https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/technical-documentation/methodology.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/technical-docume... I'm not super Survey methodology savvy, (more familiar with anti-patterns for it honestly, and figuring out when the Map starts diverging from the landscape), but in terms of what it is actually measuring, and how much divergence is introduced between reality and the convenient model inferred from the survey's statistical finger waggling... I leave that to the more Stats inclined among us. It seems an okay methodology, but it doesn't strike me in terms of being the most accurate measurement, merely getting enough data that someone feels that the divergences can be safely tucked under the rug. I will say, the folks putting this together seem to have done a great job documenting it. I wish my developers could be relied upon to do as such.

bezoisevil 7y ago

Anything to deter H1B is great in my book. I'm sick of these guys coming over here and taking our jobs when we're perfectly capable of doing it ourselves for the same pay. It's time companies stopped skimming and started paying American workers

sys_64738 7y ago

This is morally and ethically wrong. If the H4 visa holder has the right to work in the past then you can't revoke it. Those already working should be grandfathered in.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
RappingBoomer 7y ago
don't worry...this is just trump throwing a sop to his base...pretending to follow through on his campaign promises...this work ban will almost certainly never be implemented
- Balgair 7y ago
  For proof that the administration is mostly hot air: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/05/trump-aides-ignore-president/589489/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/05/trump-a... Much can be said about the timelines, motivations, and downstream effects here, but the thesis that Donny's administration is largely negligent seems to be more true than false. It does feel as if the Treasury Department has become little more than three HS interns in a back room furiously trying to figure out how Quicken works.
masonic 7y ago
It's legally correct. The H-4 expansion Obama did, just like his DACA expansion, was illegal, as the Fifth Circuit has already established. The Trump administration is simply following the law by withdrawing the illegal expansion that the DHS lacked legal authority to do. The H-4 specific lawsuit from Save Jobs USA is using the same principle from the Fifth Circuit decision. The legal way to have done H-4 or DACA was with appropriate legislation during the time the Democrats held the Presidency, the House, and a filibuster-proof Senate majority... yet they chose to do absolutely no changes in immigration law (DACA or other amnesty, H-4 or other expansion). In fact, Senator Schumer railed against amnesty himself in multiple floor speeches. Now, ask yourself why that is.

wyxuan 7y ago

H4 is notorious for not allowing spouses to leave their abusive H-1B partners (because they are dependent). Working is a way to allow them to have some breathing room when it comes to these relationships.

the_common_man 7y ago
The problem is more complicated because most Indians have arranged marriages where the women has a bit of less power to begin with

paxys 7y ago

Even if the administration does actually issue a ruling (which they have been sitting on for years now), it will immediately be challenged in courts and remain there indefinitely. Like everything else it's meant to be a talking point for Trump at his rallies, nothing more.

dhosek 7y ago

Just another purely racist move on the part of this administration.

donedealomg 7y ago
this has nothing to do with race try to use your brain for a second please
jjtheblunt 7y ago
Why is that your interpretation rather than just closing a loophole? Are you saying there are not many immigrants of English ancestry (Britain, Australia, Canada) who are entirely "white" being inconvenienced by this?
- tsycho 7y ago
  (I am going to assume you are genuinely curious and will answer sincerely. Also, this topic has enough easy to Google sources for my claims below that I am not bothering to cite them, primarily because I am on my phone. However I am happy to add them later if that becomes the only point of contention) Actually there aren't (white people being affected). This primarily affects Indians and to a lesser extent, Chinese immigrants. For every one else, if you are here on a H1, and your spouse wants to work, you apply for a green card and get it in about a year. Now you and your spouse can work (and NOT WORK without consequences) for the next 10 years, after which you have to renew your green card. If you are from India, your green card queue is currently estimated to be 30-100 years long. This is because green cards have country of birth quotas that ignore the population of countries. During this wait time, your spouse cannot work unless they can find another employer to sponsor an independent H1B for them. Also, you have to renew your H1 every 3 years, and if you lose your job, you have less than a month to find a new one, else you have to leave the US. The Obama administration started the H4 work permit for the above situation, for people whose spouses are stuck in an insanely long green card queue. The number of people actually on H4 work permits is a miniscule percentage of the US labor force, such that it is not going to change any economic dynamics. But it is a massive blow to the unfortunate spouses who rely on it. At which point, the most likely logical explanation for this step is that the Trump administration thinks that it will please his primary voter base, and the actual distribution of the affected people suggest (even if it is hard to prove) that racism played a role.

webninja 7y ago

First they take our jobs, now they take our women? I’m kidding and I know it’s offensive but really they’ll just be sending a bunch of single Indian dudes over here now so what do you expect will happen?

ycombonator 7y ago

Visa is not a right, it's a privilege. Please be aware, entering the United States is a privilege, not a right. https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend%2C-relative%2C-etc.-denied-entry-to-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/757/~/friend%2C....

Apocryphon 7y ago
Seems like an unjust way to retract a privilege, then.
solveit 7y ago
I have no idea why you're citing a government website on an ethical question. You realize that law and policy is just something a bunch of people decided was a good idea? The distinction between rights versus privileges, insofar as it is defined by law and policy, has nothing to do with ethics.
- throwaway8879 7y ago
  So "law and policy is just something a bunch of people decided was a good idea". What do you think ethics is? If we're going to be really strict, then everything about humans is "just a bunch of people decided was a good idea".
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    The criticism is that using what the government said to justify what the government then said when both are opinions is weak and circular.
    - ymolodtsov 7y ago
      And government’s opinions change far more frequently than ethics.
      - arcticbull 7y ago

cletus 7y ago

The administration had been making some cautiously encouraging noises about fixes to this system. I wonder now if those voices were drowned out or the administration is just schizophrenic and this is the work of another part of the administration. This right-to-work for H4s isn't the problem. Don't get me wrong: it sucks for those affected and it's arbitrarily capricious but it's not the problem. Oh and BTW the US immigration system as a whole is arbitrarily capricious. This is some combination of "they're stealing our jobs" and an effort to discourage immigration in general, psychologically lumping those that sneak across the border with highly-skilled workers into the same bucket. Some examples: - If your green card is lost or stolen it costs $400 to replace it but, worse, it takes 8-12+ months at current queue times to get a replacement. The US government can get a US citizen a passport in a day if it needs to. - Lose it while overseas and you're in for a world of hurt to re-enter the US (and then go through the above process to get it replaced). - Your Labor Certification ("LC") can get audited. This sounds fine but it's really not. USCIS has a stated goal of not having applicants figure out their auditing criteria so they RANDOMLY audit a some applications. The total number of audited LCs is estimated to be ~30%. - If your LC is audited, this just randomly adds 12-18+ months to your process depending on how many times USCIS can send you Requests for Evidence ("RFEs"). Yes this can happen more than once. Personally I know of one case where there were 3 separate RFEs for a FAANG engineer that added >2.5 years to the process. - Green cards have quotas by country of birth. H1Bs do not. This, primarily, is the cause of the massive logjam particularly for India but, to a lesser extent, also for China, Mexico and the Phillipines (depending on the visa category). - It is common for applications at various stages to get stuck where nothing happens for months for no real reason. This is so common that there is a procedure for dealing with it: writing to your local Senator or congressman and having their office file an inquiry with USCIS. Not everyone knows this but this tends to unstick things within a week. Why it gets stuck in the first place is a mystery. - Once your case is assigned to a particular examiner, you're stuck with that examiner. They will process their applications on a FIFO basis and one examiner may be particularly slow compared to another for no readily apparent reason. Worse, different examiners will apply the same rule differently in that in a given situation one will ask for an additional form where another wouldn't. And yes that adds another 3-6 months to the process as your updated submission goes to the back of their queue. - There are several time windows you need to be aware of. With sufficient delays some of your supporting documentation may be out of date. And bingo, that's another go around. - Getting married on a green card won't really help your spouse at all. There are years long delays for sponsoring your spouse and they'll enjoy no relevant status before then. The general advice is you'll start this process and finish it probably after naturalization (which is a far quicker process). So what is the core problem that needs to be fixed? Easy. The abuse of the system by Indian IT outsourcing companies. For these companies, the 10+ year delays in getting a green card for Indian-born people is a feature not a bug because that's longer they can keep them in what is not that far from indentured servitude. These people aren't highly-skilled and aren't highly-paid. They're taking spots that could otherwise go to highly-skilled and highly-paid people at FAANG type companies. Other commenters are right in that a simple minimum pay could have a lot of loopholes. Being "total compensation" with inflated values on "benefits" is just one way. Another is, say, overcharging for services that are described as optional but really aren't, like food or accomodation. Want to see examples of how desperate people are trapped by these sorts of "fees" into essentially perpetual debt? Look no further than India's brick kilns [1]. [1] https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-bondage/ https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-bondage/

josh5555 7y ago

It does seem like India in particular has gamed the system. I can see the logic in this in the big picture. I don't see why people are calling this evil and cruel, it is just a way to help create jobs for citizens. Most countries make it very difficult for foreign workers. The US is still the most liberal and generous even after this small tweak.

mrtksn 7y ago

I find the working visa concept ridiculous. Why would a nationality be a topic in the hiring process? It's ridiculous to have the government involved in the hiring process and the first vetting step towards employment being the immigration office. Yes, I understand the problems that limitless free movement might create but it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or people who say that want meritocracy to discuss only the implementation details of the visa system in the context of exceptions(i.e. you cannot work in this country except if you personally meet the following criteria). Why not create a system that is fair at the core, something like "your passport countries' democracy score, worker rights, environmental protection standards and human rights need to be in the same range as the country you want to work at". The visa-free travel and visa-free working right essentially boil down to this anyway, why not remove all the exceptions and let people optimize their countries towards these metrics if they want to work in some other country? In the current form, immigration is painful for the immigrants and doesn't do any good for the countries that send those immigrants.

jldugger 7y ago
> it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or people who say that want meritocracy What ever gave you the impression that the "America #1" crowd was either of those things?
- mrtksn 7y ago
  The populists say all the time that they want meritocracy and complain that those women/minorities/immigrants are hired based on their gender/race/passport instead of their skills. They are populist probably because these opinions are popular.
  - nl 7y ago
    I think you'll find that the "America First" crowd and the "Meritocracy" crowd are listening to different parts of the arguments from the same people, and just hearing what they want to hear. I think there is a strand in their argument that being American is a merit in itself, but this isn't usually stated explicitly except in forms like "Americans for American Jobs". I'm not arguing this makes any logical sense though - it doesn't.

anonymous_i 7y ago

I will throw a different perspective here on why tightening regulations on H-4 spouse work is important: - Fact is everyone comes to the US to have a better economic life. - Even asylum seekers, would want to move to the US over any other progressive European nation , because, American Dream, easy upwards mobility, diversity. This is a personal observation. Let me shed some light on how it works for Indian people. You can extrapolate it to other entities too. - Indian girls in general conveniently marry a US living husband of their parents choice(not all but many), and compete for the same jobs with kids who finished their Masters Degrees here. - H-1B visa system is fucked up. Infosys and Wipro and TCS ship tons of their employees to the US.These people work at a price less than the current market price. - This is bad for three reasons: - Kids don't want to come to the United States to do their Masters because, job market is tight. Its bad for schools and kids too. Schools for those foreign dollars, for kids- its important to have an exposure to outside world - this helps shape world view in a tremendously good way. - These people are employed mostly to replace existing American workers. - From my observations, the reason I am biased in favouring kids coming here for Masters is because, with in the time it takes to finish their education, and the time it takes to find a job, they imbibe American culture. This may sound silly, but it is very important. These people at some time will become citizens and will become part of national discourse. - Contractors shipped by Infosys and Wipro and TCS could never be part of that. It is hardly possible. Again , its a personal observation. - So , how do all these things tie together - Someone who finishes his Masters in the United States is expected to find a job with in three months of his OPT(Optional Practical Training) start date. - Now these people are mostly by themselves and invested heavily for their education. No reason why these people flock to so called 'consultancies'. - Compare that to the spouses of existing H-1B visa holders, who never invested anything here. No cultural investment, nor education. They have a security to live here for as long as their relatively smart husband is allowed to live. With unlimited amount of time compared to some one with a Masters degree, they are at a disproportionate advantage. - People finishing Masters should be given precedence over H4 spouses and H-1B's(for reasons above) hired by outsourcing companies. - There is more to it than we know.For all the xenophobia, this administration is displaying there are times, they are not wrong.

jtagx 7y ago

And down goes the GDP and tax income for the society

the_common_man 7y ago
Doubt it. This program only started 3-4 years ago.

rdl 7y ago

I wonder if a viable H-1B reform would be a mix of a much higher cash wage floor (maybe indexed by geography, but $80-100k across the US, and $150-200k in a place like SF or NY), a requirement that they be hired by firms with at least n (=10?) US citizen or PR employees for every H1B (thus solving the Wipro/infosys problem), and then eliminating the quotas, making them H-1B portable across employers with a ~90 day window, etc. The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" is a common international founder/key employee visa requirement. Maybe make it 10x payroll for citizen/pr vs. h-1b, but there should also be an "n jobs over $x/yr ratio" to prevent the single investor/owner having a $30mm/yr salary, and then 30 x $100k H-1B jobs) Otherwise, I'm in favor of scrapping H-1B in favor of an explicitly loosened O-1 which largely meets the same purposes as above.

cosmodisk 7y ago

Such a moronic idea.I appreciate there's an argument on who should be allowed to enter the country and live there legally, however this isn't part of it. What is the benefit for that person not to work? How does the state or Americans benefit from it?This is second only to the UK,where refugees are not allowed to work,even though the applications take years to be processed.

simplecomplex 7y ago

More hateful unnecessary government regulation that harms people just trying to work and make a life for themselves.

jmpman 7y ago

There is a major problem with tech employment in this country. I used to support a tech heavy company in St Louis, a city with over 50% black population. What percentage of the employees were black? Guess it depends upon what percentage of employees were security guards. The US minority population is dramatically underrepresented in tech. Reduce the competition for entry level tech positions, and their numbers will grow.

elisharobinson 7y ago

i dont know why this is an issue

stunt 7y ago

H1B is the US economy nuclear weapon. especially in tech, science, and research. The US imports top talents while the country hasn't paid any subsidies for their education, development, medicine, growth, childbirth and you name it. And they have to come and spend money to establish their life after relocation. It is necessary to have a minimum wage to make sure companies will priorities local talents. The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" model sometimes create busy-work but I think that is a fair combination to wage floor. I believe it is important to do everything to help integrate skilled workers to society. Make them feel they belong. They are more valuable assets if they stay. Of course it has to be in accordance with population and unemployment metrics. There is this annoying double standard currently. If they invest and spend in the US we complain, and if they remittance to the home country again we complain. And now this work ban is like telling them mine and run because we don't want you here.

robbrit 7y ago

Can someone clarify for me? When I was on an H-1B, I was explicitly told that my wife who was on an H-4 was not allowed to work. What has changed?

throwaway082729 7y ago

Sigh. Will have to move to Canada or home after 17 years of living here. My kid, an American citizen, doesn't want to move but this is going to devastate my wife who has only recently started to work in the education field and I can't continue living here regardless of how much money I make.

sieabahlpark 7y ago
Sure if where you live is California. Plenty of other affordable states.
- throwaway082729 7y ago
  Oh, affordability is not a problem at all.I make about $500k/yr. My wife cannot work if this change takes effect and it'll take a huge mental toll on her and on our relationship.
  - burfog 7y ago
    With many people, the opposite is the case. Work interferes with the relationship. Suppose work is 8 hours per day, but there is also 8 hours of housework. If you split evenly, which isn't normal, that gives 12 hours per person with you both working outside the home. That goes down to just 8 if only one person works. You then have more time for the relationship. You might need to make a cultural shift. You'd need to show appreciation for housework. If you're in the habit of looking down on people who do that, or if she herself is, then things won't go well.
    - throwaway082729 7y ago
      I do all the laundry, cook on weekends (and on weekdays if required), etc. That's not the point. My wife wants to be able to pursue a career of her own not just for money. She won't be able to do this without a H4 EAD
      - 7y ago