4 ms·

The western politicians already subdue minorities via the Justice and financial systems. Just look at our incarceration rate, and differential outcomes for the

by dv_dt 7y ago

The western politicians already subdue minorities via the Justice and financial systems. Just look at our incarceration rate, and differential outcomes for the same crimes. No need to buy flashy new tech for it.

chrischen 7y ago
This reminds me of a scene in the book To Kill a Mockingbird where some old white ladies are talking about the poor people in Africa while they treat their own Black servants poorly.
dredmorbius 7y ago
Foucalt and Chomsky on institutinal control, 1971. https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5wuB_p63YM https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5wuB_p63YM
vorpalhex 7y ago
Differential outcomes and putting your muslim population into "re-education camps" without trial sure is apples to apples...
- dv_dt 7y ago
  Muslims in re-education camps sounds a lot like systematic high-rate incarceration of minorities to me. Look at something as mundane as cash bail in our justice system. It's something that systematically knocks poor and minority people into a tailspin of financial and life woes. Rich people systematically walk free, poor people who can't pay, wait in jail, sometimes years for their trial date. Compared to China, I would agree that the US crucially does have more political freedom to change things like this - but the actual state of things means we need to exercise those freedoms while we still can. https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2017/03/01/locked-up-is-cash-bail-on-the-way-out https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...
  - sonnyblarney 7y ago
    "Muslims in re-education camps sounds a lot like systematic high-rate incarceration of minorities to me." This is a beyond troubling bit of moral relativism. The difference between 'arbitrary incarceration based on ethnicity' - and 'detention based on reasonable likelihood of committing violent crime' is a mile wide. You're literally comparing the rounding up of an ethnic minority and placement in internment camps, to the fact that there's a higher crime rate in some areas in the US. FYI nothing in your reference indicates necessarily that there is injustice in the bail system, rather there could be changes to create better outcomes.
    - dv_dt 7y ago
      The US incarceration rate is by most estimates four times higher than in China. You can try to dismiss the criticism qualitatively, but quantitatively it's very troubling in the US. Even including estimates for political inceration in China, it seems to go from 118/100k, w/ political prisoners up to 165/100k, whereas the US is 655/100k just outright. Which we try to claim is some form of justice, but is far outside the norms of all other nations (even politically regressive ones). Compared to South Africa the US "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid" Few care to admit it, but we basically have race based imprisonment in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in...
      - sonnyblarney 7y ago
        That there is a lot of crime in the US is a problem, but it's another thing to argue that such incarceration is not entirely warranted. The US has cultural issues that don't remotely exist in the rest of the civilized world. There are a few dozen 'violence zones' i.e. S. Chicago, Baltimore, New Orleans that are extremely violent, to the point that such violence is unknown in the rest of the civilized world. Only S. America and Africa have spots that compare.
        7y ago
- vkou 7y ago
  Most people in US prisons have never had a trial. 95% of our criminals plead guilty, without trial. It is, indeed, apples to oranges, but we've got no shortage of problems in our justice system.
  - burfog 7y ago
    There are problems, but the fact that "95% of our criminals plead guilty, without trial" provides no evidence of it. Consider these possible explanations: a. We only arrest the guilty. Of those, 95% are remorseful and willing to admit that they did wrong. Just 5% stubbornly try to evade justice. b. We only arrest the innocent. The 95% who plead guilty are taking plea deals, but would have been found not guilty. c. We only arrest the innocent. The 95% who plead guilty are taking plea deals, saving themselves from losing at trial. d. Of the people charged with crime, 95% are guilty. They accept it. The remaining 5% are innocent. e. Of the people charged with crime, 99% are guilty. The innocent people, and some of the guilty people, choose to fight. ... Ideally there would not be such a percentage, because there would be no crime and no trials. Failing that, the next best thing would be perfect arrests and 100% guilty pleas. This puts all the criminals in prison without putting anybody else in prison. The next best after that would involve trials with a 100% conviction rate. This also puts all the criminals in prison without putting anybody else in prison.
- bnolsen 7y ago
  It's a bad solution to a legitimate problem, one very easily abused. A few years ago in the northwest xinjiang province there was an uprising by the muslim population randomly stabbing chinese, injecting them with needles, containing God knows what, pulling people out of cars and beating them to death, etc. The people were so scared no one went out to do anything and full commerce everything stopped entirely (I know because my wife have sisters and direct relatives living there). So one result was a general crackdown on everyone. In xingjian now restaurants, grocery stores, etc all have xray machines and metal detectors at all entrances. It seems subways, trains, airports, all over now require xray and metal detectors just to enter. Just as in western europe the islamic population in many cases is a menace.
  - vorpalhex 7y ago
    That sounds an awful lot like propaganda. Vague needle attacks, lack of sources, "beating people to death" while commerce comes to a halt. > Just as in western europe the islamic population in many cases is a menace Except that's just not true. There's no secret Islamic uprising, muslims aren't running around torching arsenal fans or forcing Germans to stop eating pork. Don't get sucked into the propaganda. Question everything.

by dv_dt 7y ago

chrischen 7y ago

This reminds me of a scene in the book To Kill a Mockingbird where some old white ladies are talking about the poor people in Africa while they treat their own Black servants poorly.

dredmorbius 7y ago

Foucalt and Chomsky on institutinal control, 1971. https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5wuB_p63YM https://youtube.com/watch?v=J5wuB_p63YM

vorpalhex 7y ago

Differential outcomes and putting your muslim population into "re-education camps" without trial sure is apples to apples...

dv_dt 7y ago
Muslims in re-education camps sounds a lot like systematic high-rate incarceration of minorities to me. Look at something as mundane as cash bail in our justice system. It's something that systematically knocks poor and minority people into a tailspin of financial and life woes. Rich people systematically walk free, poor people who can't pay, wait in jail, sometimes years for their trial date. Compared to China, I would agree that the US crucially does have more political freedom to change things like this - but the actual state of things means we need to exercise those freedoms while we still can. https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2017/03/01/locked-up-is-cash-bail-on-the-way-out https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/sta...
- sonnyblarney 7y ago
  "Muslims in re-education camps sounds a lot like systematic high-rate incarceration of minorities to me." This is a beyond troubling bit of moral relativism. The difference between 'arbitrary incarceration based on ethnicity' - and 'detention based on reasonable likelihood of committing violent crime' is a mile wide. You're literally comparing the rounding up of an ethnic minority and placement in internment camps, to the fact that there's a higher crime rate in some areas in the US. FYI nothing in your reference indicates necessarily that there is injustice in the bail system, rather there could be changes to create better outcomes.
  - dv_dt 7y ago
    The US incarceration rate is by most estimates four times higher than in China. You can try to dismiss the criticism qualitatively, but quantitatively it's very troubling in the US. Even including estimates for political inceration in China, it seems to go from 118/100k, w/ political prisoners up to 165/100k, whereas the US is 655/100k just outright. Which we try to claim is some form of justice, but is far outside the norms of all other nations (even politically regressive ones). Compared to South Africa the US "imprisons a larger percentage of its black population than South Africa did at the height of apartheid" Few care to admit it, but we basically have race based imprisonment in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_incarceration_rate_with_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in...
    - sonnyblarney 7y ago
      That there is a lot of crime in the US is a problem, but it's another thing to argue that such incarceration is not entirely warranted. The US has cultural issues that don't remotely exist in the rest of the civilized world. There are a few dozen 'violence zones' i.e. S. Chicago, Baltimore, New Orleans that are extremely violent, to the point that such violence is unknown in the rest of the civilized world. Only S. America and Africa have spots that compare.
      - 7y ago
vkou 7y ago
Most people in US prisons have never had a trial. 95% of our criminals plead guilty, without trial. It is, indeed, apples to oranges, but we've got no shortage of problems in our justice system.
- burfog 7y ago
  There are problems, but the fact that "95% of our criminals plead guilty, without trial" provides no evidence of it. Consider these possible explanations: a. We only arrest the guilty. Of those, 95% are remorseful and willing to admit that they did wrong. Just 5% stubbornly try to evade justice. b. We only arrest the innocent. The 95% who plead guilty are taking plea deals, but would have been found not guilty. c. We only arrest the innocent. The 95% who plead guilty are taking plea deals, saving themselves from losing at trial. d. Of the people charged with crime, 95% are guilty. They accept it. The remaining 5% are innocent. e. Of the people charged with crime, 99% are guilty. The innocent people, and some of the guilty people, choose to fight. ... Ideally there would not be such a percentage, because there would be no crime and no trials. Failing that, the next best thing would be perfect arrests and 100% guilty pleas. This puts all the criminals in prison without putting anybody else in prison. The next best after that would involve trials with a 100% conviction rate. This also puts all the criminals in prison without putting anybody else in prison.
bnolsen 7y ago
It's a bad solution to a legitimate problem, one very easily abused. A few years ago in the northwest xinjiang province there was an uprising by the muslim population randomly stabbing chinese, injecting them with needles, containing God knows what, pulling people out of cars and beating them to death, etc. The people were so scared no one went out to do anything and full commerce everything stopped entirely (I know because my wife have sisters and direct relatives living there). So one result was a general crackdown on everyone. In xingjian now restaurants, grocery stores, etc all have xray machines and metal detectors at all entrances. It seems subways, trains, airports, all over now require xray and metal detectors just to enter. Just as in western europe the islamic population in many cases is a menace.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  That sounds an awful lot like propaganda. Vague needle attacks, lack of sources, "beating people to death" while commerce comes to a halt. > Just as in western europe the islamic population in many cases is a menace Except that's just not true. There's no secret Islamic uprising, muslims aren't running around torching arsenal fans or forcing Germans to stop eating pork. Don't get sucked into the propaganda. Question everything.