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Could someone explain the difference between a programming language and a framework? I’m confused how a programming language can be implemented in java or lisp.

Could someone explain the difference between a programming language and a framework? I’m confused how a programming language can be implemented in java or lisp. Doesn’t that just make it a java/lisp framework?

voldacar 7y ago
By that logic, every programming language is just an assembly framework ;)
- agravier 7y ago
  That sounds truthy. Every programming language is a machine language framework.
- timClicks 7y ago
  Well, a CPU microcode framework. Or perhaps an electron mustering framework.
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  Not necessarily, I would consider an interpreter as something entirely different because there is no requirement that it abide to the syntax of the language. I feel that syntax defines the language just like spoken language. It doesn’t make sense to me to say this language english is implemented in Spanish and German.
  - boomlinde 7y ago
    > Not necessarily, I would consider an interpreter as something entirely different because there is no requirement that it abide to the syntax of the language. What does this mean? A language interpreter naturally abides to the syntax of the language it implements. > It doesn’t make sense to me to say this language english is implemented in Spanish and German. Maybe because natural languages are a useless analogy for this in the first place.
  - voldacar 7y ago
    a cpu is a microcode interpreter
feanaro 7y ago
A framework is usually just a library for language L. Often it's extensive and serves a single broadly-defined purpose. A programming language implementation for a language P, written in language L, usually denotes a function in L which maps strings representing programs in P to effects (interpreters) or to programs in yet another language (compilers).
mhh__ 7y ago
Programming languages have to be implemented in something. It is traditional to implement the language in something quick, and then start compiling/interpreting the language in itself as soon as possible (Now you have a very big test suite for free)
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  I see, so it uses a java interpreter but the syntax of the language is not java?
ketralnis 7y ago
Java's implemented largely in C++. Does that make Java just a C++ framework?
- coldacid 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure it's largely classic C, /not/ C++.
  - abecedarius 7y ago
    It was C++ at least in the 90s when I interviewed for the JVM compiler team.
  - nickpsecurity 7y ago
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10028057/what-programming-language-is-used-to-develop-java https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10028057/what-programmin...
  - ketralnis 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's 100% immaterial to the argument but from 8 seconds on Google, here: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk https://github.com/openjdk/jdk C++: 13.9% C: 5.4% Or here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot "Written in C++, Assembly" Or here: https://blogs.oracle.com/sundararajan/so-you-want-to-read-hotspot-source https://blogs.oracle.com/sundararajan/so-you-want-to-read-ho... I should have said Perl to really bring out the pedants.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      13.9% is hardly a big surface and I bet those C values come from C++ header files. Also OpenJDK is just one implementation among several.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- 7y ago
abecedarius 7y ago
E was never meant to be tied to Java (after the very early period in both languages when the E people tried to get Sun interested in incorporating their ideas). http://erights.org/history/original-e/index.html http://erights.org/history/original-e/index.html After that the JVM was the first target platform but the language design was not meant to depend on it.

voldacar 7y ago

By that logic, every programming language is just an assembly framework ;)

agravier 7y ago
That sounds truthy. Every programming language is a machine language framework.
timClicks 7y ago
Well, a CPU microcode framework. Or perhaps an electron mustering framework.
blackflame7000 7y ago
Not necessarily, I would consider an interpreter as something entirely different because there is no requirement that it abide to the syntax of the language. I feel that syntax defines the language just like spoken language. It doesn’t make sense to me to say this language english is implemented in Spanish and German.
- boomlinde 7y ago
  > Not necessarily, I would consider an interpreter as something entirely different because there is no requirement that it abide to the syntax of the language. What does this mean? A language interpreter naturally abides to the syntax of the language it implements. > It doesn’t make sense to me to say this language english is implemented in Spanish and German. Maybe because natural languages are a useless analogy for this in the first place.
- voldacar 7y ago
  a cpu is a microcode interpreter

feanaro 7y ago

A framework is usually just a library for language L. Often it's extensive and serves a single broadly-defined purpose. A programming language implementation for a language P, written in language L, usually denotes a function in L which maps strings representing programs in P to effects (interpreters) or to programs in yet another language (compilers).

mhh__ 7y ago

Programming languages have to be implemented in something. It is traditional to implement the language in something quick, and then start compiling/interpreting the language in itself as soon as possible (Now you have a very big test suite for free)

blackflame7000 7y ago
I see, so it uses a java interpreter but the syntax of the language is not java?

ketralnis 7y ago

Java's implemented largely in C++. Does that make Java just a C++ framework?

coldacid 7y ago
I'm pretty sure it's largely classic C, /not/ C++.
- abecedarius 7y ago
  It was C++ at least in the 90s when I interviewed for the JVM compiler team.
- nickpsecurity 7y ago
  https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10028057/what-programming-language-is-used-to-develop-java https://stackoverflow.com/questions/10028057/what-programmin...
- ketralnis 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's 100% immaterial to the argument but from 8 seconds on Google, here: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk https://github.com/openjdk/jdk C++: 13.9% C: 5.4% Or here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HotSpot "Written in C++, Assembly" Or here: https://blogs.oracle.com/sundararajan/so-you-want-to-read-hotspot-source https://blogs.oracle.com/sundararajan/so-you-want-to-read-ho... I should have said Perl to really bring out the pedants.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    13.9% is hardly a big surface and I bet those C values come from C++ header files. Also OpenJDK is just one implementation among several.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
7y ago

abecedarius 7y ago

E was never meant to be tied to Java (after the very early period in both languages when the E people tried to get Sun interested in incorporating their ideas). http://erights.org/history/original-e/index.html http://erights.org/history/original-e/index.html After that the JVM was the first target platform but the language design was not meant to depend on it.