7 ms·

While I understand the merit of the energy efficiency implications mentioned in the article, I actually disagree with this method on grounds of the potential sp

While I understand the merit of the energy efficiency implications mentioned in the article, I actually disagree with this method on grounds of the potential spread/development of infectious disease. The vast majority of cultures have rites for taking care of the dead in a tidy manner. This is partly out of respect and partly for cleanliness purposes. Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease. Having them naturally degrade seems like a great way for new human-specific evolutions in disease to grow and spread.

lostapathy 7y ago
You're not up to date on the rules. Per the FTC, embalming is not required for burial in any state. A lot of cemeteries require it, but Google "green burial" for more info on places that don't. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0300-ftc-funeral-rule https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0300-ftc-funeral-rule
giarc 7y ago
>Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease. Not really. Corpses don't really gain the ability to transmit diseases if the disease wasn't already there. For those with infectious diseases that are of concern for human to human transmission, many locations have laws already in place. In Alberta, my province, we refer to these as Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 diseases and have public health law regarding handling of the deceased that fall into these categories [1]. 1 - http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2008_135.pdf http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2008_135.pdf
jetrink 7y ago
They aren't just tossing the bodies on a compost pile. It's a very specific process that involves a lot of oxygen and high temperatures (60C-70C). Pathogens do not survive if it's done properly.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  >if it's done properly... And this is the reason that composting never took hold in antiquity. For the ancients, who may not have had as much scientific knowledge, burial and cremation could be done improperly, and still provide a sanitary means of disposal of the deceased. You try to compost the deceased in an ancient society lacking the proper techniques, facilities, and medical care, and I'd imagine you'd just be bringing a whole world of problems down on your village or town.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    > And this is the reason that composting never took hold in antiquity I rather doubt that is they reason why in the past we didn't decide to throw our dead in what is essentially a rubbish heap...
Cyph0n 7y ago
Embalming is forbidden in Islam. Corpses are buried directly after ritual cleaning. But I tend to agree that composting is a bit... strange.
- walrus01 7y ago
  The western cultural expectation of spending a lot of money on embalming, then dressing the dead in fancy expensive clothing and putting them in a $5000 ornate wood coffin which will immediately go into the ground to rot is perverse. It has created economic incentives on the part of funeral services corporations to extract as much money from a grieving family as possible.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    This is basically it. Particularly in the US where a burial has become astonishingly crass and perverse. The size of the plot and headstone. The common use of heavyweight steel for coffins that can delay decomposition even longer. Concrete grave linings. Cremation is no better from an impact perspective. I think they may be aiming for corpses that hang around as long as ancient Egypt achieved. :)
    - briandear 7y ago
      > Particularly in the US where a burial has become astonishingly crass and perverse. Ever been to cemeteries in Paris? Giant monuments, incredibly ornate graves.. The US is far more modest by comparison.
      - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
        You mean the 2 or 3 hundred year old ones? Victorians were often crass too. I meant in the current era.
  - Meandering 7y ago
    I agree that there is a financial incentive in the funeral industry. But... In general, humanity has buried and burned people with expensive objects to show reverence or recognize status. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc. It's kind of a tradition to waste a bunch of money on the dead!
LinuxBender 7y ago
If I can't afford to be frozen, then I would like to be sealed in clear epoxy with LED lights and put on display. That should be quite sanitary while not emitting much Co2.
- zimpenfish 7y ago
  > I would like to be sealed in clear epoxy According to [1], taking a 40yr old male, the body would be 180cm x 25cm x 70cm (805, 236, 506+378 extrapolated). You'd probably want at least 2.5cm of epoxy border giving you 185cm x 30cm x 75cm or 0.42m^3. Assuming the body takes up about 0.067m^3[2], you're left with 0.35m^3 or 21350in^3. [3] says multiply that by 0.0163 to get 350 litres which then translates to kg of resin. Using GlassCast 50, at 32kg for £450 inc vat, you'd be looking at ~£4900. (you could also just paint over a few thin layers instead but it wouldn't look as impressive.) (also you'd need to dry the body out first because the resin would react badly with the moisture.) [1] https://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section03.htm https://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section03.htm [2] https://www.researchgate.net/post/Volume_of_average_human_body https://www.researchgate.net/post/Volume_of_average_human_bo... [3] https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/resin-gel-silicone-adhesive/casting-resin/glasscast-50-clear-epoxy-river-table-resin.html https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/resin-gel-silicone-adhes...
  - LinuxBender 7y ago
    That's a decent price. I would be the gift that keeps on giving :-) Being frozen is about $300k.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
> Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease You're really going to have to provide a citation for that. On our way to choosing a natural eco-friendly burial, we looked at quite a few locations. There was one common feature - none allowed embalming. Nor is there any legal requirement for embalming, and very few (regular) burial grounds require it. It's a convenience for undertakers (and a nice way to bump the price implying it's an expected procedure). It seems very unlikely that would be the case if your assertion were true.
- jalk 7y ago
  Jessica Mitford book "The American Way of Death" from 1963 is describe here https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/death/fond-farewells https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/death/fond-farewells She documented the undertakers bumping up the prices as you describe (to put it mildly). I don't however know if the undertaker lobby has since managed to get embalmment mandatory / carteling with the graveyards
themagician 7y ago
In most big cities people just throw their dead pets in the trash. Morbid, but true. I don't see why human bodies would really be all that different.
- lugg 7y ago
  I don't know why but I laughed too hard at the thought of someone dumping their grandma in the trash out back, feet sticking up and all. Then the garbage man coming and being annoyed at the pointy toes but not really all dismayed.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    "Please keep in mind we have a 50 lbs weight limit per bag - our backs and your loved ones thank you. Also, titanium is recyclable, so place all knees and hips into the appropriate bins."
  - themagician 7y ago
    https://youtu.be/0Rtu1Va-dnM https://youtu.be/0Rtu1Va-dnM
Fomite 7y ago
The researchers involved have looked a this a lot, and found very little evidence for it.
AtlasLion 7y ago
"Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease" Say that to 1.7 billion Muslims who bury their dead using neither.

lostapathy 7y ago

You're not up to date on the rules. Per the FTC, embalming is not required for burial in any state. A lot of cemeteries require it, but Google "green burial" for more info on places that don't. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0300-ftc-funeral-rule https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0300-ftc-funeral-rule

giarc 7y ago

>Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease. Not really. Corpses don't really gain the ability to transmit diseases if the disease wasn't already there. For those with infectious diseases that are of concern for human to human transmission, many locations have laws already in place. In Alberta, my province, we refer to these as Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 diseases and have public health law regarding handling of the deceased that fall into these categories [1]. 1 - http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2008_135.pdf http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Regs/2008_135.pdf

jetrink 7y ago

They aren't just tossing the bodies on a compost pile. It's a very specific process that involves a lot of oxygen and high temperatures (60C-70C). Pathogens do not survive if it's done properly.

bilbo0s 7y ago
>if it's done properly... And this is the reason that composting never took hold in antiquity. For the ancients, who may not have had as much scientific knowledge, burial and cremation could be done improperly, and still provide a sanitary means of disposal of the deceased. You try to compost the deceased in an ancient society lacking the proper techniques, facilities, and medical care, and I'd imagine you'd just be bringing a whole world of problems down on your village or town.
- GordonS 7y ago
  > And this is the reason that composting never took hold in antiquity I rather doubt that is they reason why in the past we didn't decide to throw our dead in what is essentially a rubbish heap...

Cyph0n 7y ago

Embalming is forbidden in Islam. Corpses are buried directly after ritual cleaning. But I tend to agree that composting is a bit... strange.

walrus01 7y ago
The western cultural expectation of spending a lot of money on embalming, then dressing the dead in fancy expensive clothing and putting them in a $5000 ornate wood coffin which will immediately go into the ground to rot is perverse. It has created economic incentives on the part of funeral services corporations to extract as much money from a grieving family as possible.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  This is basically it. Particularly in the US where a burial has become astonishingly crass and perverse. The size of the plot and headstone. The common use of heavyweight steel for coffins that can delay decomposition even longer. Concrete grave linings. Cremation is no better from an impact perspective. I think they may be aiming for corpses that hang around as long as ancient Egypt achieved. :)
  - briandear 7y ago
    > Particularly in the US where a burial has become astonishingly crass and perverse. Ever been to cemeteries in Paris? Giant monuments, incredibly ornate graves.. The US is far more modest by comparison.
    - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
      You mean the 2 or 3 hundred year old ones? Victorians were often crass too. I meant in the current era.
- Meandering 7y ago
  I agree that there is a financial incentive in the funeral industry. But... In general, humanity has buried and burned people with expensive objects to show reverence or recognize status. The Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, etc. It's kind of a tradition to waste a bunch of money on the dead!

LinuxBender 7y ago

If I can't afford to be frozen, then I would like to be sealed in clear epoxy with LED lights and put on display. That should be quite sanitary while not emitting much Co2.

zimpenfish 7y ago
> I would like to be sealed in clear epoxy According to [1], taking a 40yr old male, the body would be 180cm x 25cm x 70cm (805, 236, 506+378 extrapolated). You'd probably want at least 2.5cm of epoxy border giving you 185cm x 30cm x 75cm or 0.42m^3. Assuming the body takes up about 0.067m^3[2], you're left with 0.35m^3 or 21350in^3. [3] says multiply that by 0.0163 to get 350 litres which then translates to kg of resin. Using GlassCast 50, at 32kg for £450 inc vat, you'd be looking at ~£4900. (you could also just paint over a few thin layers instead but it wouldn't look as impressive.) (also you'd need to dry the body out first because the resin would react badly with the moisture.) [1] https://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section03.htm https://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section03.htm [2] https://www.researchgate.net/post/Volume_of_average_human_body https://www.researchgate.net/post/Volume_of_average_human_bo... [3] https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/resin-gel-silicone-adhesive/casting-resin/glasscast-50-clear-epoxy-river-table-resin.html https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/resin-gel-silicone-adhes...
- LinuxBender 7y ago
  That's a decent price. I would be the gift that keeps on giving :-) Being frozen is about $300k.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

> Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease You're really going to have to provide a citation for that. On our way to choosing a natural eco-friendly burial, we looked at quite a few locations. There was one common feature - none allowed embalming. Nor is there any legal requirement for embalming, and very few (regular) burial grounds require it. It's a convenience for undertakers (and a nice way to bump the price implying it's an expected procedure). It seems very unlikely that would be the case if your assertion were true.

jalk 7y ago
Jessica Mitford book "The American Way of Death" from 1963 is describe here https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/death/fond-farewells https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/death/fond-farewells She documented the undertakers bumping up the prices as you describe (to put it mildly). I don't however know if the undertaker lobby has since managed to get embalmment mandatory / carteling with the graveyards

themagician 7y ago

In most big cities people just throw their dead pets in the trash. Morbid, but true. I don't see why human bodies would really be all that different.

lugg 7y ago
I don't know why but I laughed too hard at the thought of someone dumping their grandma in the trash out back, feet sticking up and all. Then the garbage man coming and being annoyed at the pointy toes but not really all dismayed.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  "Please keep in mind we have a 50 lbs weight limit per bag - our backs and your loved ones thank you. Also, titanium is recyclable, so place all knees and hips into the appropriate bins."
- themagician 7y ago
  https://youtu.be/0Rtu1Va-dnM https://youtu.be/0Rtu1Va-dnM

Fomite 7y ago

The researchers involved have looked a this a lot, and found very little evidence for it.

AtlasLion 7y ago

"Corpses that aren’t embalmed or cremated are hotbeds for disease" Say that to 1.7 billion Muslims who bury their dead using neither.