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I'm guessing you're in India? This is such common practice that as a CTO I've been forced to blanket ban working with Indian firms. This is one of the least dis

by ciguy 7y ago

I'm guessing you're in India? This is such common practice that as a CTO I've been forced to blanket ban working with Indian firms. This is one of the least dishonest things they do, some of the other stuff I could tell stories about is far worse. You're doing the right thing, but that doesn't mean you won't be punished for it in the short term. Hopefully someone recognizes your integrity in the long term and you are rewarded accordingly but there are no guarantees.

Creationer 7y ago
I hire freelancers for $xxx-$xxxx contracts in the games industry, and I've set a blanket ignore to proposals from Indian contractors as well for the same reasons. The other problem is that the person you speak to and agree to do the work with is often not the one who will actually be carrying it out. Generally speculative applications where the quality or focus area of the portfolio doesn't match the job is another problem.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  I hired on Upwork for a simple thing (some pdf generation in Rails). It became evident fast the person I hired wasn’t doing the work, and no one was working against the detailed spec I gave them. I eventually marked it as complete just to get them out of my life, as I wasted more time in communication than I saved from not doing the work myself.
  - ciguy 7y ago
    Fortunately it's usually incredibly obvious in the first day or two when this happens. You have to cut your losses early in those cases. Before I banned all India based firms I would sometimes hire 3 of them for a small project and then hire the one that actually performed well for whatever bigger project I actually wanted done. But sadly for them it's now easier to just not hire there at all.
- belltaco 7y ago
  >I hire freelancers for $xxx-$xxxx contracts in the games industry, and I've set a blanket ignore to proposals from Indian contractors as well for the same reasons. Looks like what you're doing is a very clear cut textbook violation of the law. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm >National Origin Discrimination & Work Situations >The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment.
  - crazypyro 7y ago
    To be fair, it's not discrimination if he simply blanket ignores proposals from contractors located in India. It is if he blanket ignores proposals from any contractors who were born in India, but may be located elsewhere. It's not as clear cut as you are trying to make it out. Perhaps he simply wasn't clear in his wording....
dominotw 7y ago
> I'm guessing you're in India? Yes. No one else uses the phrase "joining a company as a fresher" .
- ciguy 7y ago
  I'm aware of that. Plus the grammar used is pretty unique to Indian English speakers.
cik 7y ago
Same deal. My personal favourite is always the difference between the actual technical interview passer, and individual doing the work. I know of many companies that blanket ban India, Ukraine, and Belarus because of this.
- VectorLock 7y ago
  I just interviewed a guy from Moldova who was very good on his phone interview and so absolutely terrible in his in-person interview (flat out refusal to do the simplest whiteboard coding question imaginable) that I'm convinced they were two different people.
- notus 7y ago
  What is it about these countries that makes people that way? There are plenty of other poor countries where this doesn't happen as much. What about India, Ukraine, and Belarus makes people think it is okay to be dishonest?
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    My guess is a history of scarcity of resources. When there literally isn't enough to go around, you'll cut in line, lie, cheat, defraud to get ahead. I remember someone from Brazil once telling me that if you get swindled, society looks at you as a sucker who clearly deserved it, not at the swindler as a bad person.
    - baal80spam 7y ago
      Good point. Another problem is that there is a saying "The example comes from the top" which in my opinion applies here. In many countries (also ones you listed) the government is corrupt and can't be trusted by the people, so they do the same.
    - ciguy 7y ago
      This isn't quite right, since there are many poor or poorer countries where this isn't the case. However it does seem more common in poor developing countries so I don't doubt it's a contributing factor.
blablabla123 7y ago
This is kind of racist. I mean there are probably bizillion good reasons against remote work and different time zones, difficult communication being one of them. Until last week I worked at a software company doing safety critical software, the boss citing 2 or 3 similar thoughts like yours about other countries. He himself (German) wanted to get a bid for a project and was planning himself to fake 2 years experience instead of 2 months. I quit immediately - he'll not have the manpower to pursue it. Anyway, just stop it. People from all over the world do it, there are even statistics about it that many employees/applicants from G20 countries do this.
gowld 7y ago
> > joining a company as a fresher. > I'm guessing you're in India? Yes. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fresher https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fresher (India) A fresh graduate looking for his or her first job.
- ciguy 7y ago
  I'm aware of that, which is why I guessed India. :)
osrec 7y ago
I would like to know your other experiences. I'm an Indian who has suffered at the hands of Indian outsourcers and want to know what the common patterns of dishonest behaviour are.
s3arch 7y ago
>This is one of the least dishonest things they do, some of the other stuff I could tell stories about is far worse. I would like to know more.

by ciguy 7y ago

Creationer 7y ago

I hire freelancers for $xxx-$xxxx contracts in the games industry, and I've set a blanket ignore to proposals from Indian contractors as well for the same reasons. The other problem is that the person you speak to and agree to do the work with is often not the one who will actually be carrying it out. Generally speculative applications where the quality or focus area of the portfolio doesn't match the job is another problem.

bdcravens 7y ago
I hired on Upwork for a simple thing (some pdf generation in Rails). It became evident fast the person I hired wasn’t doing the work, and no one was working against the detailed spec I gave them. I eventually marked it as complete just to get them out of my life, as I wasted more time in communication than I saved from not doing the work myself.
- ciguy 7y ago
  Fortunately it's usually incredibly obvious in the first day or two when this happens. You have to cut your losses early in those cases. Before I banned all India based firms I would sometimes hire 3 of them for a small project and then hire the one that actually performed well for whatever bigger project I actually wanted done. But sadly for them it's now easier to just not hire there at all.
belltaco 7y ago
>I hire freelancers for $xxx-$xxxx contracts in the games industry, and I've set a blanket ignore to proposals from Indian contractors as well for the same reasons. Looks like what you're doing is a very clear cut textbook violation of the law. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/nationalorigin.cfm >National Origin Discrimination & Work Situations >The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment.
- crazypyro 7y ago
  To be fair, it's not discrimination if he simply blanket ignores proposals from contractors located in India. It is if he blanket ignores proposals from any contractors who were born in India, but may be located elsewhere. It's not as clear cut as you are trying to make it out. Perhaps he simply wasn't clear in his wording....

dominotw 7y ago

> I'm guessing you're in India? Yes. No one else uses the phrase "joining a company as a fresher" .

ciguy 7y ago
I'm aware of that. Plus the grammar used is pretty unique to Indian English speakers.

cik 7y ago

Same deal. My personal favourite is always the difference between the actual technical interview passer, and individual doing the work. I know of many companies that blanket ban India, Ukraine, and Belarus because of this.

VectorLock 7y ago
I just interviewed a guy from Moldova who was very good on his phone interview and so absolutely terrible in his in-person interview (flat out refusal to do the simplest whiteboard coding question imaginable) that I'm convinced they were two different people.
notus 7y ago
What is it about these countries that makes people that way? There are plenty of other poor countries where this doesn't happen as much. What about India, Ukraine, and Belarus makes people think it is okay to be dishonest?
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  My guess is a history of scarcity of resources. When there literally isn't enough to go around, you'll cut in line, lie, cheat, defraud to get ahead. I remember someone from Brazil once telling me that if you get swindled, society looks at you as a sucker who clearly deserved it, not at the swindler as a bad person.
  - baal80spam 7y ago
    Good point. Another problem is that there is a saying "The example comes from the top" which in my opinion applies here. In many countries (also ones you listed) the government is corrupt and can't be trusted by the people, so they do the same.
  - ciguy 7y ago
    This isn't quite right, since there are many poor or poorer countries where this isn't the case. However it does seem more common in poor developing countries so I don't doubt it's a contributing factor.

blablabla123 7y ago

This is kind of racist. I mean there are probably bizillion good reasons against remote work and different time zones, difficult communication being one of them. Until last week I worked at a software company doing safety critical software, the boss citing 2 or 3 similar thoughts like yours about other countries. He himself (German) wanted to get a bid for a project and was planning himself to fake 2 years experience instead of 2 months. I quit immediately - he'll not have the manpower to pursue it. Anyway, just stop it. People from all over the world do it, there are even statistics about it that many employees/applicants from G20 countries do this.

gowld 7y ago

> > joining a company as a fresher. > I'm guessing you're in India? Yes. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fresher https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fresher (India) A fresh graduate looking for his or her first job.

ciguy 7y ago
I'm aware of that, which is why I guessed India. :)

osrec 7y ago

I would like to know your other experiences. I'm an Indian who has suffered at the hands of Indian outsourcers and want to know what the common patterns of dishonest behaviour are.

s3arch 7y ago

>This is one of the least dishonest things they do, some of the other stuff I could tell stories about is far worse. I would like to know more.