6 ms·

One huge assumption no one has challenged is the notion that IQ is a valid measure of intelligence. One reason to doubt this is that above a low threshold (80 I

by kkwteh 7y ago

One huge assumption no one has challenged is the notion that IQ is a valid measure of intelligence. One reason to doubt this is that above a low threshold (80 IIRC), IQ has no correlation with salary.

rantanplan 7y ago
Because... the higher the salary the higher the intelligence?
- ahje 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle
roenxi 7y ago
It is a little risky assuming correlation - hopefully salary is correlated with a sort of general economic contribution rather than intelligence. Intelligence isn't a prerequisite for contributing mightily. If intelligence was correlated with salary that would be a symptom of bad outcomes in the economic system. I'd expect that, but wouldn't be happy to see it. Eg, whoever is running the local plumbing small business is in a position to make a lot of money. The plumber might be smart or might not be, really shouldn't matter. I've seen situations where truck drivers make a higher salary than engineers. More intelligence almost correlated with a lower salary.
Dirlewanger 7y ago
IQ's not the most robust measurement, but it is one of the best we have for predicting overall success in life.
factsaresacred 7y ago
IQ measures intelligence, not how much the market values intelligence. Perhaps what you're getting at is 'how much does IQ matter' which is an interesting question. In modern society the answer is probably a lot. And when you factor in the negative correlation between intelligence and aggression / self-control, probably a lot more.
- mapcars 7y ago
  I also doubt IQ measures intelligence, more like intellect and memory.
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    Aren't intellect and memory roughly intelligence? What element is missing that you needs to be there to be called intelligence?
- asveikau 7y ago
  IQ attempts to measure intelligence. Key difference. You should not put too much weight on an attempt to measure subjective qualities or reduce a human being to a number.
mcv 7y ago
Not sure what salary has to do with it. Salary is not intelligence. I'm not saying that assumption is not wrong; I certainly have my doubts about the validity of IQ tests. But salary isn't a valid measure of intelligence either. Honestly, I don't think we can even really agree on what intelligence is, and as long as that's the case, we can't really know what we're supposed to measure either.
WillPostForFood 7y ago
If you look at socioeconomic success (education and occupation), there is an extremely high correlation with IQ. http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Intelligence-and-socioeconomic-success-A-meta-analytic-review-of-longitudinal-research.pdf http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Intellige... There are a lot of reasons you would expect divergence when just looking at salary. A Reporter is averaging 41k, a Postdoctoral Research Associate is averaging under $48k while a nurse makes $65k and a elevator repairman is making 79k. Higher status jobs don't necessarily pay more.
- bjourne 7y ago
  Yes, but an even higher correlation between socioeconomic success and socioeconomic status: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/money-academic-success-us-college-intelligence-born-rich-genomics-new-york-university-a8585821.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/money-academic-su...
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    The paper doesn't say IQ doesn't correlate to socioeconomic success, it just notes that IQ tests may be biased by socioeconomic status. But even within this study you could look at the lowest economic group, and the kids that have better genetic markers go to college at ~5x the rate of kids in the same socioeconomic group with poor markers. It also doesn't say much about access to college today for lower socioeconomic groups because it is entirely looking backwards at people born between 1905(!!) and 1964. It is not surprising that the lowest quintile is much less likely to have attended college. In 1940, the census bureau estimate is less the 5% of Americans had a bachelor's degree or higher, so it would be expected that the educated 5% was very biased towards the upper class.
- vbuwivbiu 7y ago
  https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39 https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...
  - 7y ago
kkwteh 7y ago
I agree with other replies that salary is a very flawed indicator of intelligence, but it was a simple data point to share. My only point is that it's not at all obvious that IQ is a valid measure of intelligence. If you think about what is involved in an IQ test and all the ways someone's intelligence manifests itself, it seems clear to me that IQ is at best a very distorted and narrow measurement of intelligence.
anoncake 7y ago
Other possible explanations: - Intelligence is not correlated with salary - Intelligence is negatively correlated with materialism - Intelligent people get paid more for doing work that requires I but less for having an unpleasant job (given equal pay, would you rather be a programmer or a garbage collector?) - Intelligence is negatively correlated with other abilities (brain areas specialized in reasoning can't be specialized in social skills, energy spent on the brain can't be spent on the immune system) - Intelligence is negatively correlated with mental health (Less Intelligent people don't notice or understand problems more intelligent ones do – ignorance is bliss; the things that make one intelligent also make one less stable – the genes that make one less intelligent haven't died out because evolution hasn't progressed that far yet but because the brain designs intelligent people have are buggy.
- oreo83 7y ago
  "genes that make one less intelligent" Come on, surely you aren't suggesting that genetics have anything to do with intelligence, are you?
  - anoncake 7y ago
    Are you suggesting that genetics have nothing to do with Intelligence? AFAIK it isn't much but I find it hard to believe that it's nothing. Our genes make us smarter than other animals, why shouldn't they make a difference between humans? Also I just listed all possibilities that came to my mind, whether I think they're likely or not.
    - noisem4ker 7y ago
      I believe that was sarcasm, mocking that kind of very vocal people who like to argue that intelligence, gender and race are purely a social construct and have no physical foundation. Extreme offense is usually taken when someone attempts to correlate intelligence with race.
      - oreo83 7y ago
thethirdone 7y ago
> One reason to doubt this is that above a low threshold (80 IIRC), IQ has no correlation with salary. Do you have a source for this? Everything I have read suggests IQ is highly correlated with income (without considering a threshold).
- kkwteh 7y ago
  https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39 https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...
anthuman 7y ago
IQ is a valid measure of a certain kind of intelligence. And it most certainly correlates with salary and success at an individual and a national level. The higher your IQ, the greater the odds of you making more money. The higher the collective IQ of a nation or group, the greater the odds of that nation or group being successful or wealthy. https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html If you look at the list of successful and wealthy countries and the list of national iqs, they tend to correlate fairly well. Barring war or some external impediment, the nations with the highest iqs tend to be wealthier and the lower iqs tend to be poorer.

by kkwteh 7y ago

rantanplan 7y ago

Because... the higher the salary the higher the intelligence?

ahje 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilbert_principle

roenxi 7y ago

It is a little risky assuming correlation - hopefully salary is correlated with a sort of general economic contribution rather than intelligence. Intelligence isn't a prerequisite for contributing mightily. If intelligence was correlated with salary that would be a symptom of bad outcomes in the economic system. I'd expect that, but wouldn't be happy to see it. Eg, whoever is running the local plumbing small business is in a position to make a lot of money. The plumber might be smart or might not be, really shouldn't matter. I've seen situations where truck drivers make a higher salary than engineers. More intelligence almost correlated with a lower salary.

Dirlewanger 7y ago

IQ's not the most robust measurement, but it is one of the best we have for predicting overall success in life.

factsaresacred 7y ago

IQ measures intelligence, not how much the market values intelligence. Perhaps what you're getting at is 'how much does IQ matter' which is an interesting question. In modern society the answer is probably a lot. And when you factor in the negative correlation between intelligence and aggression / self-control, probably a lot more.

mapcars 7y ago
I also doubt IQ measures intelligence, more like intellect and memory.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  Aren't intellect and memory roughly intelligence? What element is missing that you needs to be there to be called intelligence?
asveikau 7y ago
IQ attempts to measure intelligence. Key difference. You should not put too much weight on an attempt to measure subjective qualities or reduce a human being to a number.

mcv 7y ago

Not sure what salary has to do with it. Salary is not intelligence. I'm not saying that assumption is not wrong; I certainly have my doubts about the validity of IQ tests. But salary isn't a valid measure of intelligence either. Honestly, I don't think we can even really agree on what intelligence is, and as long as that's the case, we can't really know what we're supposed to measure either.

WillPostForFood 7y ago

If you look at socioeconomic success (education and occupation), there is an extremely high correlation with IQ. http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Intelligence-and-socioeconomic-success-A-meta-analytic-review-of-longitudinal-research.pdf http://www.emilkirkegaard.dk/en/wp-content/uploads/Intellige... There are a lot of reasons you would expect divergence when just looking at salary. A Reporter is averaging 41k, a Postdoctoral Research Associate is averaging under $48k while a nurse makes $65k and a elevator repairman is making 79k. Higher status jobs don't necessarily pay more.

bjourne 7y ago
Yes, but an even higher correlation between socioeconomic success and socioeconomic status: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/money-academic-success-us-college-intelligence-born-rich-genomics-new-york-university-a8585821.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/money-academic-su...
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  The paper doesn't say IQ doesn't correlate to socioeconomic success, it just notes that IQ tests may be biased by socioeconomic status. But even within this study you could look at the lowest economic group, and the kids that have better genetic markers go to college at ~5x the rate of kids in the same socioeconomic group with poor markers. It also doesn't say much about access to college today for lower socioeconomic groups because it is entirely looking backwards at people born between 1905(!!) and 1964. It is not surprising that the lowest quintile is much less likely to have attended college. In 1940, the census bureau estimate is less the 5% of Americans had a bachelor's degree or higher, so it would be expected that the educated 5% was very biased towards the upper class.
vbuwivbiu 7y ago
https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39 https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...
- 7y ago

kkwteh 7y ago

I agree with other replies that salary is a very flawed indicator of intelligence, but it was a simple data point to share. My only point is that it's not at all obvious that IQ is a valid measure of intelligence. If you think about what is involved in an IQ test and all the ways someone's intelligence manifests itself, it seems clear to me that IQ is at best a very distorted and narrow measurement of intelligence.

anoncake 7y ago

Other possible explanations: - Intelligence is not correlated with salary - Intelligence is negatively correlated with materialism - Intelligent people get paid more for doing work that requires I but less for having an unpleasant job (given equal pay, would you rather be a programmer or a garbage collector?) - Intelligence is negatively correlated with other abilities (brain areas specialized in reasoning can't be specialized in social skills, energy spent on the brain can't be spent on the immune system) - Intelligence is negatively correlated with mental health (Less Intelligent people don't notice or understand problems more intelligent ones do – ignorance is bliss; the things that make one intelligent also make one less stable – the genes that make one less intelligent haven't died out because evolution hasn't progressed that far yet but because the brain designs intelligent people have are buggy.

oreo83 7y ago
"genes that make one less intelligent" Come on, surely you aren't suggesting that genetics have anything to do with intelligence, are you?
- anoncake 7y ago
  Are you suggesting that genetics have nothing to do with Intelligence? AFAIK it isn't much but I find it hard to believe that it's nothing. Our genes make us smarter than other animals, why shouldn't they make a difference between humans? Also I just listed all possibilities that came to my mind, whether I think they're likely or not.
  - noisem4ker 7y ago
    I believe that was sarcasm, mocking that kind of very vocal people who like to argue that intelligence, gender and race are purely a social construct and have no physical foundation. Extreme offense is usually taken when someone attempts to correlate intelligence with race.
    - oreo83 7y ago

thethirdone 7y ago

> One reason to doubt this is that above a low threshold (80 IIRC), IQ has no correlation with salary. Do you have a source for this? Everything I have read suggests IQ is highly correlated with income (without considering a threshold).

kkwteh 7y ago
https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39 https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...

anthuman 7y ago

IQ is a valid measure of a certain kind of intelligence. And it most certainly correlates with salary and success at an individual and a national level. The higher your IQ, the greater the odds of you making more money. The higher the collective IQ of a nation or group, the greater the odds of that nation or group being successful or wealthy. https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html If you look at the list of successful and wealthy countries and the list of national iqs, they tend to correlate fairly well. Barring war or some external impediment, the nations with the highest iqs tend to be wealthier and the lower iqs tend to be poorer.