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> Even in capitalist societies there are still places like that, with free healthcare, basic necessities available for everyone, guaranteed roof over your head,

by dictum 7y ago

> Even in capitalist societies there are still places like that, with free healthcare, basic necessities available for everyone, guaranteed roof over your head, and even full employment. These are called prisons. I've seen this quote elsewhere, and the spurious correlation bothers me. That prisons supply inmates with basic necessities does not make systems that supply members with basic necessities akin to prisons. In practice, many of them may operate with restrictions to freedom, but so does employment in most fields under capitalism. Even business ownership is a significant restriction of freedom if you cannot delegate work (i.e. you cannot afford to hire), liquidate assets, or stay free from mounting debt.

atemerev 7y ago
The difference you are ignoring here is voluntary and/or unenforced restriction of freedom (which is a contradiction in terms — you are free to change your conditions) vs. imposed and enforced restrictions. Kind of important.
- hobs 7y ago
  And the obvious thing you are ignoring is that prisons just dont do this: free healthcare, basic necessities available for everyone, guaranteed roof over your head, and even full employment Prisons are places where rape, neglect, and violence are the norm. Being pithy reduces whatever point you had into dust.
  - atemerev 7y ago
    Perhaps in United States. Our European prisons are much more comfortable. Additionally, in the USSR we perhaps had less rape and violence in peacetime (our prison guards were professional and order was enforced), but oh boy, we knew a thing or two about neglect.
    - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
      The Gulag Archipelago paints a very different picture, torture was common according to that text. Serves them right for not giving up every single ounce of grain they produced to the government.
      - atemerev 7y ago
        Yes, that’s right; it is about the Stalin era, though. My personal experience with the USSR was limited to the end of 1980s, where things were much softer compared to those horrors.
  - saiya-jin 7y ago
    > And the obvious thing you are ignoring is that prisons just dont do this: > free healthcare, basic necessities available for everyone, guaranteed roof over your head, and even full employment Yes they do in all western societies apart from US
    - atemerev 7y ago
      I don’t know, I pay $500/month for my medical insurance out of pocket. Last time I checked, unemployment was also rampant. Basic necessities are quite expensive. Education is nearly free compared to everything else, that one is true (costs of living quite compensate for that, though). Americans are quite welcome in Europe, by the way. For some reason, however, the majority of people prefers to move in other direction.

by dictum 7y ago

atemerev 7y ago

The difference you are ignoring here is voluntary and/or unenforced restriction of freedom (which is a contradiction in terms — you are free to change your conditions) vs. imposed and enforced restrictions. Kind of important.

hobs 7y ago
And the obvious thing you are ignoring is that prisons just dont do this: free healthcare, basic necessities available for everyone, guaranteed roof over your head, and even full employment Prisons are places where rape, neglect, and violence are the norm. Being pithy reduces whatever point you had into dust.
- atemerev 7y ago
  Perhaps in United States. Our European prisons are much more comfortable. Additionally, in the USSR we perhaps had less rape and violence in peacetime (our prison guards were professional and order was enforced), but oh boy, we knew a thing or two about neglect.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    The Gulag Archipelago paints a very different picture, torture was common according to that text. Serves them right for not giving up every single ounce of grain they produced to the government.
    - atemerev 7y ago
      Yes, that’s right; it is about the Stalin era, though. My personal experience with the USSR was limited to the end of 1980s, where things were much softer compared to those horrors.
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  > And the obvious thing you are ignoring is that prisons just dont do this: > free healthcare, basic necessities available for everyone, guaranteed roof over your head, and even full employment Yes they do in all western societies apart from US
  - atemerev 7y ago
    I don’t know, I pay $500/month for my medical insurance out of pocket. Last time I checked, unemployment was also rampant. Basic necessities are quite expensive. Education is nearly free compared to everything else, that one is true (costs of living quite compensate for that, though). Americans are quite welcome in Europe, by the way. For some reason, however, the majority of people prefers to move in other direction.