5 ms·

For community driven programming languages I would say PHP, large user base, mature & very active.

rococode 7y ago
I'd use this as an argument that if PHP is the gold standard for a community-driven programming language, I'd rather every popular language be backed by a large corp haha. Actually, even ignoring PHP, I'm vaguely convinced it's generally better for a language to be backed by a company. I personally feel more secure knowing that there are people whose full-time job is to take care of the language, and I trust community backlash to deal with any errant decisions. I can't imagine Google (or Microsoft, or Apple, or Facebook) making or blocking a change in a way that kills an entire programming language while they sit idly by ignoring the community response.
- pbowyer 7y ago
  Having observed the decision-making process for 6 months and thought about PHP's direction, I'd agree. Either a foundation is needed, which sets a vision and sticks to it, or a company, or a BDFL. But with none of them, you get each language faction pulling in its own direction, bits of each added/retained, and no coherence.
- fetbaffe 7y ago
  Visual Basic was basically(!) killed by Microsoft albeit large protest, so no, putting your trust in one company does not always work. PHP has been developed very well the past few years as community project, there is an open RFC process with a codified voting process in place. Sure there have been some drama within the community, but that has not affected either the language nor the implementation. What makes PHP a great fit for a community driven project is that PHP is a pragmatic language in its core. If the general goal of a project is to design a perfect & consistent language then a community driven process is maybe not the best approach.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Visual Basic lives on as VB.NET and to this day VB 6 runtime keeps being updated to run on the latest versions of Windows.
    - fetbaffe 7y ago
      VB is de facto dead, declared legacy in 2008 & latest major release was in 1998. VB.NET is a new incompatible language, everyone invested in VB needed to retrain skills & rewrite existing software. It was a huge uproar in the community, but MS didn't care enough & this goes against TS idea that the community can stop a major company doing this sort of thing. It can happen & it will happen again. However that does not mean that you shouldn't invest resources in a corporate language, it just a false argument to think it can't die. Edit: changed disappear to die
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Yet on a past life I managed to migrate code without any major issues, other than components that weren't available on .NET.
        fetbaffe 7y ago
        Just like I said then "VB.NET is a new incompatible language, everyone invested in VB needed to retrain skills & rewrite existing software."
        pjmlp 7y ago
        > without any major issues
    - Crinus 7y ago
      Visual Basic and VB.NET are two very different beasts, only sharing a name. The VB6 runtime is indeed updated to run, but really how much update does it need beyond sticking the DLLs around? The VB4 and VB5 runtimes run perfectly fine on Win10 and those had no updates for it. It all relies on Win10's overall backwards compatibility.
- bartimus 7y ago
  Purists will agree with you. Pragmatists perhaps not so much. I'm sad to see this opinion every time somebody mentions PHP. PHP may have its flaws. But how can anyone deny the instrumental role PHP has played in building the web as we know it today? The open web, open source, open standards, agile were supposed to be the free market answer to all the flaws of the big old corporations. And for a large part they have succeeded in creating the new and better world we enjoy today. But it looks like we're experiencing some regression. The new big corporations of the web are becoming more like the big corporations of the past. Corporate structures, HR departments, Shareholder meetings, Management layers, system thinking are again replacing the success of uncertain organic growth models that involve chaos, diversity, agility, attitude and pragmatism. To see media outlets advertising social media handles as opposed to their web addresses. Purists are on the rise. Perhaps because everyone is seeking those comfortable high paying jobs at the big corporations? PHP has fought and won its battles. Outfoxing many big corporate opponents along the way. It should get the respect it deserves. And if you ever find yourself at the front-lines of a new battle. PHP might still very well be your most effective weapon of choice. A worthy consideration at least.
  - xaduha 7y ago
    > Purists will agree with you. Pragmatists perhaps not so much. Golang is one of the most pragmatic languages there is.
    - jolfdb 7y ago
      Go is pragmatic about language design, but purist about managing community whiners.
- jaabe 7y ago
  Is modern PHP really that bad? I kind of think it makes a lot of sense in a world where almost everything, even major government IT systems, are basically java/.net on the backend and some JavaScript MVVM framework on the client. I know a guy who works with laravel, and we’ve teased him so much about PHP over the years, because PHP. The truth is, that his backend is actually more suited for the modern world than what we currently run. .Net core is getting to where it’s competitive, but it’s still a bitch to build something like a mixed asp mvc and Vue components app, which is truly effective/productive alternative to MVVM clients or jquery/Ajax for smaller projects.
  - swah 7y ago
    The thing I "envy" about PHP guys is that they aren't on proglang forums; they are somewhere happier making money and clients happy, and not giving a f* about the things our niche here does...
  - ok_coo 7y ago
    I started doing PHP dev during the 5.2, 5.3 times and since 7, it feels much better to program in. It even has RoR-like frameworks like Laravel. So, use Symfony or Laravel if you need to use PHP. It has some historical baggage that some people can't get over. Nothing, no programming language will be perfect. If I had to start all over, I'd probably use something else but it works great for what I'm doing. (web dev with Laravel)
- house_atr 7y ago
  PHP BAD!
coblers 7y ago
Not sure if you're arguing for or against the stake at hand :P

I'd use this as an argument that if PHP is the gold standard for a community-driven programming language, I'd rather every popular language be backed by a large corp haha. Actually, even ignoring PHP, I'm vaguely convinced it's generally better for a language to be backed by a company. I personally feel more secure knowing that there are people whose full-time job is to take care of the language, and I trust community backlash to deal with any errant decisions. I can't imagine Google (or Microsoft, or Apple, or Facebook) making or blocking a change in a way that kills an entire programming language while they sit idly by ignoring the community response.

pbowyer 7y ago
Having observed the decision-making process for 6 months and thought about PHP's direction, I'd agree. Either a foundation is needed, which sets a vision and sticks to it, or a company, or a BDFL. But with none of them, you get each language faction pulling in its own direction, bits of each added/retained, and no coherence.
fetbaffe 7y ago
Visual Basic was basically(!) killed by Microsoft albeit large protest, so no, putting your trust in one company does not always work. PHP has been developed very well the past few years as community project, there is an open RFC process with a codified voting process in place. Sure there have been some drama within the community, but that has not affected either the language nor the implementation. What makes PHP a great fit for a community driven project is that PHP is a pragmatic language in its core. If the general goal of a project is to design a perfect & consistent language then a community driven process is maybe not the best approach.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Visual Basic lives on as VB.NET and to this day VB 6 runtime keeps being updated to run on the latest versions of Windows.
  - fetbaffe 7y ago
    VB is de facto dead, declared legacy in 2008 & latest major release was in 1998. VB.NET is a new incompatible language, everyone invested in VB needed to retrain skills & rewrite existing software. It was a huge uproar in the community, but MS didn't care enough & this goes against TS idea that the community can stop a major company doing this sort of thing. It can happen & it will happen again. However that does not mean that you shouldn't invest resources in a corporate language, it just a false argument to think it can't die. Edit: changed disappear to die
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Yet on a past life I managed to migrate code without any major issues, other than components that weren't available on .NET.
      - fetbaffe 7y ago
        Just like I said then "VB.NET is a new incompatible language, everyone invested in VB needed to retrain skills & rewrite existing software."
        pjmlp 7y ago
        > without any major issues
  - Crinus 7y ago
    Visual Basic and VB.NET are two very different beasts, only sharing a name. The VB6 runtime is indeed updated to run, but really how much update does it need beyond sticking the DLLs around? The VB4 and VB5 runtimes run perfectly fine on Win10 and those had no updates for it. It all relies on Win10's overall backwards compatibility.
bartimus 7y ago
Purists will agree with you. Pragmatists perhaps not so much. I'm sad to see this opinion every time somebody mentions PHP. PHP may have its flaws. But how can anyone deny the instrumental role PHP has played in building the web as we know it today? The open web, open source, open standards, agile were supposed to be the free market answer to all the flaws of the big old corporations. And for a large part they have succeeded in creating the new and better world we enjoy today. But it looks like we're experiencing some regression. The new big corporations of the web are becoming more like the big corporations of the past. Corporate structures, HR departments, Shareholder meetings, Management layers, system thinking are again replacing the success of uncertain organic growth models that involve chaos, diversity, agility, attitude and pragmatism. To see media outlets advertising social media handles as opposed to their web addresses. Purists are on the rise. Perhaps because everyone is seeking those comfortable high paying jobs at the big corporations? PHP has fought and won its battles. Outfoxing many big corporate opponents along the way. It should get the respect it deserves. And if you ever find yourself at the front-lines of a new battle. PHP might still very well be your most effective weapon of choice. A worthy consideration at least.
- xaduha 7y ago
  > Purists will agree with you. Pragmatists perhaps not so much. Golang is one of the most pragmatic languages there is.
  - jolfdb 7y ago
    Go is pragmatic about language design, but purist about managing community whiners.
jaabe 7y ago
Is modern PHP really that bad? I kind of think it makes a lot of sense in a world where almost everything, even major government IT systems, are basically java/.net on the backend and some JavaScript MVVM framework on the client. I know a guy who works with laravel, and we’ve teased him so much about PHP over the years, because PHP. The truth is, that his backend is actually more suited for the modern world than what we currently run. .Net core is getting to where it’s competitive, but it’s still a bitch to build something like a mixed asp mvc and Vue components app, which is truly effective/productive alternative to MVVM clients or jquery/Ajax for smaller projects.
- swah 7y ago
  The thing I "envy" about PHP guys is that they aren't on proglang forums; they are somewhere happier making money and clients happy, and not giving a f* about the things our niche here does...
- ok_coo 7y ago
  I started doing PHP dev during the 5.2, 5.3 times and since 7, it feels much better to program in. It even has RoR-like frameworks like Laravel. So, use Symfony or Laravel if you need to use PHP. It has some historical baggage that some people can't get over. Nothing, no programming language will be perfect. If I had to start all over, I'd probably use something else but it works great for what I'm doing. (web dev with Laravel)
house_atr 7y ago
PHP BAD!

coblers 7y ago

Not sure if you're arguing for or against the stake at hand :P