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I’m guessing you don’t use C or C++ either then because they were proprietary Bell Labs languages. You should probably rule out assembly too because they will h

I’m guessing you don’t use C or C++ either then because they were proprietary Bell Labs languages. You should probably rule out assembly too because they will have proprietary instructions for proprietary CPUs. Which means if you really want to be freed from the shackles of using proprietary tools when programming you’re now building your own hardware too, processors and all. Good job ASCII isn’t proprietary otherwise your computing device would have no compatibility with modern computers at all. I know I get a little absurd towards the end but no more so than your remarks about Java.

ncmncm 7y ago
Guess away, but both C and C++ broke out of Bell control very, very quickly by language standards. Now they are driven by ISO Standards bodies, with many, many participants -- ATT not among them anymore, to my knowledge. Even in 1995 ATT had nothing approaching veto power. My remarks lumping Java in with C# and Swift are transparent wishful thinking.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Those ISO standards cost 100 euros on average per language version.
  - jcranmer 7y ago
    For C and C++, you can get effectively equivalent working drafts for free. For C++, you can actually compile the PDF that gets sent to ISO to put the official markings on yourself. Here is C++17: https://github.com/cplusplus/draft/tree/c++17 https://github.com/cplusplus/draft/tree/c++17 . If you have a contractual obligation that requires to exactly use a specific version of C/C++, then you'll need to pay money for the actual specification. In pretty much any other situation, the drafts are sufficient and perhaps even better (because they will have incorporated some errata).
  - jstimpfle 7y ago
    Isn't it that all ISO standards cost money? I'm sure you were perfectly aware of it, but C and C++ working drafts are almost identical (I think? Never bought an ISO version), and available for free from open-std.org. For example, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards
- pushpop 7y ago
  That was 10 years after it’s initial release and the spec hadn’t much changed from the specification defined by those Bell Labs employees. It wasn’t until 2011 that C++ saw some significant changes through the community. And in the first 10 years I seem to recall it was plagued by proprietary compilers having their own subtle behaviours. I’m not saying it was all terrible nor that Go is managed better. But whenever there is a conversation about Go on HN people get so caught up in their own snobbery about how terrible they perceive Go to be that they lose all touch with reality. The fact remains a language backed by a company is far less likely to die into insignificance than a language that isn’t. This is because it takes a lot for a language to gain momentum. You have a bit of a chicken and egg problem where developers won’t use a language without a good ecosystem, frameworks and community. But people aren’t going to write that if there aren’t already developers using it. This is where corporate sponsorship really helps. Thankfully there are a plethora of good languages out there you can choose from. If you don’t like the direction of one language then you can use another. Or, alternatively, since Java, C# and Go all have open source compilers, you could fork and build your own community.

ncmncm 7y ago

Guess away, but both C and C++ broke out of Bell control very, very quickly by language standards. Now they are driven by ISO Standards bodies, with many, many participants -- ATT not among them anymore, to my knowledge. Even in 1995 ATT had nothing approaching veto power. My remarks lumping Java in with C# and Swift are transparent wishful thinking.

pjmlp 7y ago
Those ISO standards cost 100 euros on average per language version.
- jcranmer 7y ago
  For C and C++, you can get effectively equivalent working drafts for free. For C++, you can actually compile the PDF that gets sent to ISO to put the official markings on yourself. Here is C++17: https://github.com/cplusplus/draft/tree/c++17 https://github.com/cplusplus/draft/tree/c++17 . If you have a contractual obligation that requires to exactly use a specific version of C/C++, then you'll need to pay money for the actual specification. In pretty much any other situation, the drafts are sufficient and perhaps even better (because they will have incorporated some errata).
- jstimpfle 7y ago
  Isn't it that all ISO standards cost money? I'm sure you were perfectly aware of it, but C and C++ working drafts are almost identical (I think? Never bought an ISO version), and available for free from open-std.org. For example, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/standards
pushpop 7y ago
That was 10 years after it’s initial release and the spec hadn’t much changed from the specification defined by those Bell Labs employees. It wasn’t until 2011 that C++ saw some significant changes through the community. And in the first 10 years I seem to recall it was plagued by proprietary compilers having their own subtle behaviours. I’m not saying it was all terrible nor that Go is managed better. But whenever there is a conversation about Go on HN people get so caught up in their own snobbery about how terrible they perceive Go to be that they lose all touch with reality. The fact remains a language backed by a company is far less likely to die into insignificance than a language that isn’t. This is because it takes a lot for a language to gain momentum. You have a bit of a chicken and egg problem where developers won’t use a language without a good ecosystem, frameworks and community. But people aren’t going to write that if there aren’t already developers using it. This is where corporate sponsorship really helps. Thankfully there are a plethora of good languages out there you can choose from. If you don’t like the direction of one language then you can use another. Or, alternatively, since Java, C# and Go all have open source compilers, you could fork and build your own community.