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So, are you saying that persecution of homosexuals was something only done by the Westboro Baptist Church? Or that the anti-abortion laws currently being implem

So, are you saying that persecution of homosexuals was something only done by the Westboro Baptist Church? Or that the anti-abortion laws currently being implemented all over the US only exist because the members of the Westboro Baptist Church voted for them? Or that the Westboro Baptist Church were alone responsible for the ban on stem cell research? Or that the Westboro Baptist Church alone are the ones pushing for creationism to be taught in schools? ... The media certainly distorts the truth, but the idea that somehow only some very small religious fringe groups are responsible for all the terrible political decisions that have been and are being made exclusively on the basis of religious ideas is just absurd.

leereeves 7y ago
Linking religion to the persecution of homosexuals is another distortion of the truth. There are atheist governments (for example, China and Russia) who persecute homosexuals terribly [1] and many churches who support them. [2] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination...
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
  > Homosexuals are persecuted far worse in atheist China Which is relevant how? > and Russia ... because of religion? > And they are supported by many churches. Which is great. But also a very recent development. Before that, they were mostly a driving force behind the persecution. > Linking religion to that is another distortion of the truth. So, you are claiming that religions did not contribute significantly to the persecution of homosexuals in many parts of the world, neither in the recent past, nor right now, and that the resistance against equal rights for homosexuals is not significantly coming from religions?
  - leereeves 7y ago
    The point is that you shouldn't judge all religions because some are bad, any more than you should judge all atheists by the behavior of Russia and China.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      > The point is that you shouldn't judge all religions because some are bad, any more than you should judge all atheists by the behavior of Russia and China. Except nobody is doing that. First of all, a generalized statement does not necessarily mean that it applies to all individuals that are part of the group. The majority of religious groups on the planet are in favour of discrimination against homosexuals, and that position can be found in a significant part of all major religions. Also, almost all opposition to equal rights for homosexuals comes from religious groups and individuals. And it's also not just a coincidence, but rather explicitly justified with religous traditions and scripture, so the connection between persecution of homosexuals and religion is made very explicitly by those religious people themselves. And even those religious groups that support homosexuals now were to a large degree participating in the persecution just a few decades, many less than a decade, ago, so it is still often very justified to judge them for the damage they have done before they changed their mind. None of those apply to atheists, let alone atheism. There is no connection between not believing in a god and wanting to discriminate against homosexuals. Atheists generally don't have any particular tendency to discriminate against homosexuals, and where atheists do discriminate against homosexuals, more often than not you can find religious influence on their culture as the cause behind that. Also, I have no clue why you are constantly using Russia, a majority religious country, as an example of atheists doing things. And while it is difficult to know exactly how many Russians belong to which religion, it is just obvious that the opposition to equal rights for homosexuals in Russia is primarily the work of religious people on religious grounds, so it is just weird that you are using them as an example of supposedly atheists persecuting homosexuals. If you are religious and do not and have never discriminated against homosexuals for their homosexuality, that's great, and I welcome your contribution to making the world a better place. But that does not mean that the generalized statement I made was unjustified, you personally simply weren't meant by it. However, it would still be appropriate to judge you for continuing to use the epistemology that those other people used and still use to convince themselves that persecuting homosexuals is the right thing to do, when that should be a clear demonstration that it is not reliable and is prone to lead to terrible outcomes.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  Just because Russia and China do it, doesn’t mean certain large religions also don’t, so I don’t see how it’s distortion. Islam/Christianity/Judaism in particular are notorious for giving reason to many who are against civil rights for women and non heterosexuals.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Even saying "Islam/Christianity/Judaism" is too broad. There are many sects within each religion. If someone wished to paint with an equally broad brush, they could say "atheists persecute homosexuals", citing the behavior of Russia and China. And that would be true, in the same useless sense the above argument against religion is true.

leereeves 7y ago

Linking religion to the persecution of homosexuals is another distortion of the truth. There are atheist governments (for example, China and Russia) who persecute homosexuals terribly [1] and many churches who support them. [2] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination...

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
> Homosexuals are persecuted far worse in atheist China Which is relevant how? > and Russia ... because of religion? > And they are supported by many churches. Which is great. But also a very recent development. Before that, they were mostly a driving force behind the persecution. > Linking religion to that is another distortion of the truth. So, you are claiming that religions did not contribute significantly to the persecution of homosexuals in many parts of the world, neither in the recent past, nor right now, and that the resistance against equal rights for homosexuals is not significantly coming from religions?
- leereeves 7y ago
  The point is that you shouldn't judge all religions because some are bad, any more than you should judge all atheists by the behavior of Russia and China.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    > The point is that you shouldn't judge all religions because some are bad, any more than you should judge all atheists by the behavior of Russia and China. Except nobody is doing that. First of all, a generalized statement does not necessarily mean that it applies to all individuals that are part of the group. The majority of religious groups on the planet are in favour of discrimination against homosexuals, and that position can be found in a significant part of all major religions. Also, almost all opposition to equal rights for homosexuals comes from religious groups and individuals. And it's also not just a coincidence, but rather explicitly justified with religous traditions and scripture, so the connection between persecution of homosexuals and religion is made very explicitly by those religious people themselves. And even those religious groups that support homosexuals now were to a large degree participating in the persecution just a few decades, many less than a decade, ago, so it is still often very justified to judge them for the damage they have done before they changed their mind. None of those apply to atheists, let alone atheism. There is no connection between not believing in a god and wanting to discriminate against homosexuals. Atheists generally don't have any particular tendency to discriminate against homosexuals, and where atheists do discriminate against homosexuals, more often than not you can find religious influence on their culture as the cause behind that. Also, I have no clue why you are constantly using Russia, a majority religious country, as an example of atheists doing things. And while it is difficult to know exactly how many Russians belong to which religion, it is just obvious that the opposition to equal rights for homosexuals in Russia is primarily the work of religious people on religious grounds, so it is just weird that you are using them as an example of supposedly atheists persecuting homosexuals. If you are religious and do not and have never discriminated against homosexuals for their homosexuality, that's great, and I welcome your contribution to making the world a better place. But that does not mean that the generalized statement I made was unjustified, you personally simply weren't meant by it. However, it would still be appropriate to judge you for continuing to use the epistemology that those other people used and still use to convince themselves that persecuting homosexuals is the right thing to do, when that should be a clear demonstration that it is not reliable and is prone to lead to terrible outcomes.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
Just because Russia and China do it, doesn’t mean certain large religions also don’t, so I don’t see how it’s distortion. Islam/Christianity/Judaism in particular are notorious for giving reason to many who are against civil rights for women and non heterosexuals.
- leereeves 7y ago
  Even saying "Islam/Christianity/Judaism" is too broad. There are many sects within each religion. If someone wished to paint with an equally broad brush, they could say "atheists persecute homosexuals", citing the behavior of Russia and China. And that would be true, in the same useless sense the above argument against religion is true.