4 ms·

You only need to look at the literal thousands of different versions of Christianity to see this. Is it wrong to be gay as a christian? You're going to find h

by jmcqk6 7y ago

You only need to look at the literal thousands of different versions of Christianity to see this. Is it wrong to be gay as a christian? You're going to find hundreds of different christian opinions on this, with their own scripture to back it up. Are you saved by words or actions? Again, you're going to find many many different answers, all with their own scripture and reasoning. You claim that christianity is about reflecting on one's selfishness and working against it, but can you say that about the prosperity gospel? Trump is about as self-centered as a person can get, but he's held up as a saint by millions of christians in this country. But perhaps you just mean within a single church community, and not christianity at large? I was a PK, though, so I know how church politics can go and the infighting and selfishness that can be exhibited within the community. Basically the most we can hope for when it comes to morality is some general agreement about right and wrong, and that agreement is always shifting. There has never been a community or religion in the history of the world that hasn't exhibited this.

weberc2 7y ago
Most of this doesn’t refute my point; it’s largely enumeration fallacy and I tried very hard to address this in my post (“not a panacea” and all that). The thing that is probably most valid and damaging to my model is the bit about evangelicals accepting Trump. I genuinely don’t know about this, but I’m inclined to say that it’s due to the absorbtion of post-Truth mindset from the broader culture. I don’t think you would see anything like it 15 or 20 years ago. FWIW, I’m sorry we’re being downvoted. I think we’re having quite an interesting conversation. :)
- jmcqk6 7y ago
  What's an enumeration fallacy? I've googled, but nothing useful came up. The point I was trying to make is that even if you say "we should follow christian values" the necessary follow up question is "which christian values?" 15 or 20 years ago, the same type of thing was happening, just on a smaller scale. Good examples are some of the Televangelists like Peter Popoff. Perhaps the thing we're disagreeing about is the extent that a "principled culture" protects against this kind of self-indulgence. Based on my personal experiences with the church, I've found the moral framework that it provides does not usually play an active role in the behavior of it's members, and is more often wielded as a tool of judgement against others than as a tool of self-reflection and self-improvement. But I can also recognize that my experiences with the church are not necessarily typical. I'm not sure that there is a utility to moral authoritarianism beyond the ability to quell disagreements. History has shown that "god says" is an extremely powerful motivating force.
humanrebar 7y ago
I don't know what your point is. The lack of consistency in Christian behavior does not imply that Christian morality is on the whole unhelpful. Especially since Christianity tends to downplay ritual and effort-based holiness, comparatively speaking. You don't achieve level 100 in Christian by donating, passing theology tests, travelling, conquering, converting people, or being sin free. Of course actual Christian practice will be all over the place. None of it is explicitly mandatory. Morality is fairly explicit, but actual enforcement of morality isn't the job of Christians outside of particular scenarios.
- _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
  > Especially since Christianity tends to downplay ritual and effort-based holiness, comparatively speaking. This sounds like a rather Protestant-centric viewpoint.
  - humanrebar 7y ago
    Even for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians compared to other major religions. Non-protestants are still rather light on compulsory behavior on the whole. Compare to orthodox branches of other major religions. No particular rules on clothing, cleanliness, charity, gender separation, pilgrimages, prayer times, need to attain spiritual states, etc. No karma to optimize. No hidden knowledge to uncover. Some churches eat a bit of cracker and juice/wine on a regular basis. Some get a person wet as a one time initiation ceremony. That's pretty light ritual on the whole. And while various High Mass clothes and rituals are certainly there, there's no particular requirement of parishioners to give one, attend any particular mass, or even attend a minimum number of them.
    - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
      I still might debate the role of ritual in Catholicism, Eastern & Oriental Orthodoxy, > No karma to optimize but I actually had the more karmic things in mind, i.e the importance of Works vs importance of Faith, which certainly does vary between different Christian sects. > No hidden knowledge to uncover. There are gnostic types of things. If perhaps less so today than in the Renaissance. But it's not as if it's absent. So I still think this is a rather Protestant perspective. Edit to say: Also, in fact even or perhaps even especially, Protestants were engaged in gnosticism/Christian mysticism in the Renaissance period.

by jmcqk6 7y ago

weberc2 7y ago

Most of this doesn’t refute my point; it’s largely enumeration fallacy and I tried very hard to address this in my post (“not a panacea” and all that). The thing that is probably most valid and damaging to my model is the bit about evangelicals accepting Trump. I genuinely don’t know about this, but I’m inclined to say that it’s due to the absorbtion of post-Truth mindset from the broader culture. I don’t think you would see anything like it 15 or 20 years ago. FWIW, I’m sorry we’re being downvoted. I think we’re having quite an interesting conversation. :)

jmcqk6 7y ago
What's an enumeration fallacy? I've googled, but nothing useful came up. The point I was trying to make is that even if you say "we should follow christian values" the necessary follow up question is "which christian values?" 15 or 20 years ago, the same type of thing was happening, just on a smaller scale. Good examples are some of the Televangelists like Peter Popoff. Perhaps the thing we're disagreeing about is the extent that a "principled culture" protects against this kind of self-indulgence. Based on my personal experiences with the church, I've found the moral framework that it provides does not usually play an active role in the behavior of it's members, and is more often wielded as a tool of judgement against others than as a tool of self-reflection and self-improvement. But I can also recognize that my experiences with the church are not necessarily typical. I'm not sure that there is a utility to moral authoritarianism beyond the ability to quell disagreements. History has shown that "god says" is an extremely powerful motivating force.

humanrebar 7y ago

I don't know what your point is. The lack of consistency in Christian behavior does not imply that Christian morality is on the whole unhelpful. Especially since Christianity tends to downplay ritual and effort-based holiness, comparatively speaking. You don't achieve level 100 in Christian by donating, passing theology tests, travelling, conquering, converting people, or being sin free. Of course actual Christian practice will be all over the place. None of it is explicitly mandatory. Morality is fairly explicit, but actual enforcement of morality isn't the job of Christians outside of particular scenarios.

_emacsomancer_ 7y ago
> Especially since Christianity tends to downplay ritual and effort-based holiness, comparatively speaking. This sounds like a rather Protestant-centric viewpoint.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  Even for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians compared to other major religions. Non-protestants are still rather light on compulsory behavior on the whole. Compare to orthodox branches of other major religions. No particular rules on clothing, cleanliness, charity, gender separation, pilgrimages, prayer times, need to attain spiritual states, etc. No karma to optimize. No hidden knowledge to uncover. Some churches eat a bit of cracker and juice/wine on a regular basis. Some get a person wet as a one time initiation ceremony. That's pretty light ritual on the whole. And while various High Mass clothes and rituals are certainly there, there's no particular requirement of parishioners to give one, attend any particular mass, or even attend a minimum number of them.
  - _emacsomancer_ 7y ago
    I still might debate the role of ritual in Catholicism, Eastern & Oriental Orthodoxy, > No karma to optimize but I actually had the more karmic things in mind, i.e the importance of Works vs importance of Faith, which certainly does vary between different Christian sects. > No hidden knowledge to uncover. There are gnostic types of things. If perhaps less so today than in the Renaissance. But it's not as if it's absent. So I still think this is a rather Protestant perspective. Edit to say: Also, in fact even or perhaps even especially, Protestants were engaged in gnosticism/Christian mysticism in the Renaissance period.