5 ms·

I hope you realize how dystopian that sounds. Do we need a Ministry of Truth?

by bin0 7y ago

ncmncm 7y ago
Rural America has become a dystopia. Recently there was a story on NPR interviewing high school classmates of the guy who now calls himself Alex Jones, who knew him as a bully (who beat one so badly he still suffers) and huge liar, but had not connected the thug they knew to the Alex Jones they followed on the radio. You could hear their difficulty reconciling the two.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  There are people on both sides that spew nonsense and hate.
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    "Good people", I presume. Just like "clashes with police" that leave civilians injured or dead and police miraculously unharmed. The technical term is "false equivalence". Dishonesty comes in all flavors.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
No, I absolutely do not think we need that. But ncmncm seems to think we do...
- ncmncm 7y ago
  Putting words in others' mouths is easy but not honest.
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    Putting words in others' mouths is a cheap, dishonest rhetorical trick, and I didn't mean to be doing so. But... > The American urban-rural divide in the US maps pretty neatly to who is dependent on AM radio for information. US AM radio is a cesspit of disinformation operated by extreme-right-wing billionaires who have found it is remarkably cheap to manage populations, and get them to vote for benefits to billionaires at the direct expense of those voters. Your words. > Rural voters are the most valuable target for disinformation campaigns because, by a historical quirk in American electoral politics, their votes count for quite a lot more than urban voters', and because they are more isolated from one another and so easier to keep on track. Urban voters have easier direct, face-to-face contact with one another that makes lies more expensive to sell. Also your words. > Rural voters used to vote their interests. Now they vote against their own interests, and for billionaires'. Also your words. > Those people are so heavily propagandized at that they now believe and repeat falsehoods. Also your words. So, no, you don't call for a Ministry of Truth. But you complain that rural America is being fed lies, which is leads them into voting against their own interest. Therefore... what? Shake your head at their stupidity and leave them there? Or are you going to propose something to help them? And if you're going to help them, if your analysis of the problem is correct, then you have to stop them from listening to the propaganda somehow. How are you going to do that, since they have now reached the point where they listen to it willingly? This is what I think the logic of your position forces you to. (Feel free to point out where you diverge from what I expect.)
    - ncmncm 7y ago
      Simple: When you think (as you appear to suggest) the only solution to any problem is government intervention, then any big-enough problem demands a Ministry. But I don't, and this doesn't.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        Very well, you don't propose that. What do you propose?
        ncmncm 7y ago
        I don't know the solution. We did used to have FCC rules that largely prevented the problem without any Ministry of Truth, but the rules were abandoned because billionaires found them inconvenient.
        AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        The Fairness Doctrine? That might do it. If people who only get their information from one source get both sides from that source, that might help. But I suspect that these days, there'd be just a caricature/strawman of the other side, not an honest presentation, and therefore it wouldn't actually help. (And I don't just mean Fox would do it. I could see CNN doing the same, just less blatantly.) And, those who only want to hear one side can get their "news" online these days. So I don't think it would work. It might help, though. I don't have an answer, either, by the way.

I hope you realize how dystopian that sounds. Do we need a Ministry of Truth?

by bin0 7y ago

I hope you realize how dystopian that sounds. Do we need a Ministry of Truth?

Rural America has become a dystopia. Recently there was a story on NPR interviewing high school classmates of the guy who now calls himself Alex Jones, who knew him as a bully (who beat one so badly he still suffers) and huge liar, but had not connected the thug they knew to the Alex Jones they followed on the radio. You could hear their difficulty reconciling the two.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
There are people on both sides that spew nonsense and hate.
- ncmncm 7y ago
  "Good people", I presume. Just like "clashes with police" that leave civilians injured or dead and police miraculously unharmed. The technical term is "false equivalence". Dishonesty comes in all flavors.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

No, I absolutely do not think we need that. But ncmncm seems to think we do...

ncmncm 7y ago
Putting words in others' mouths is easy but not honest.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Putting words in others' mouths is a cheap, dishonest rhetorical trick, and I didn't mean to be doing so. But... > The American urban-rural divide in the US maps pretty neatly to who is dependent on AM radio for information. US AM radio is a cesspit of disinformation operated by extreme-right-wing billionaires who have found it is remarkably cheap to manage populations, and get them to vote for benefits to billionaires at the direct expense of those voters. Your words. > Rural voters are the most valuable target for disinformation campaigns because, by a historical quirk in American electoral politics, their votes count for quite a lot more than urban voters', and because they are more isolated from one another and so easier to keep on track. Urban voters have easier direct, face-to-face contact with one another that makes lies more expensive to sell. Also your words. > Rural voters used to vote their interests. Now they vote against their own interests, and for billionaires'. Also your words. > Those people are so heavily propagandized at that they now believe and repeat falsehoods. Also your words. So, no, you don't call for a Ministry of Truth. But you complain that rural America is being fed lies, which is leads them into voting against their own interest. Therefore... what? Shake your head at their stupidity and leave them there? Or are you going to propose something to help them? And if you're going to help them, if your analysis of the problem is correct, then you have to stop them from listening to the propaganda somehow. How are you going to do that, since they have now reached the point where they listen to it willingly? This is what I think the logic of your position forces you to. (Feel free to point out where you diverge from what I expect.)
  - ncmncm 7y ago
    Simple: When you think (as you appear to suggest) the only solution to any problem is government intervention, then any big-enough problem demands a Ministry. But I don't, and this doesn't.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      Very well, you don't propose that. What do you propose?
      - ncmncm 7y ago
        I don't know the solution. We did used to have FCC rules that largely prevented the problem without any Ministry of Truth, but the rules were abandoned because billionaires found them inconvenient.
        AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        The Fairness Doctrine? That might do it. If people who only get their information from one source get both sides from that source, that might help. But I suspect that these days, there'd be just a caricature/strawman of the other side, not an honest presentation, and therefore it wouldn't actually help. (And I don't just mean Fox would do it. I could see CNN doing the same, just less blatantly.) And, those who only want to hear one side can get their "news" online these days. So I don't think it would work. It might help, though. I don't have an answer, either, by the way.