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All groups do that. Even you're doing that with your comment right here. "Everybody should do X." That's what humans do with our shared moral languages. It is i

by Retra 7y ago

All groups do that. Even you're doing that with your comment right here. "Everybody should do X." That's what humans do with our shared moral languages. It is inevitable. But you probably think it's different when you're proposing a decentralization rule like this, because it is about empowering people, not oppressing people. Of course, you'll empower people who want to oppress people, but you'll have shirked any responsibility for actual consequences, so it's all ok, isn't it? You're not advocating for your country to be divided and conquered, just divided. So you won't be responsible for the inevitable conquering that occurs afterward. You have solved the problem of personal responsibility, but social responsibility still exists, and you haven't proposed anything to manage it.

cybersnowflake 7y ago
Asking that power be decentralized as feasible with more local levels and ultimately the individual as the default repository may be a moral exhortation like a call to communism in semantic sense but the end result if successful certainly wouldn't be the same. I'm not asking for anarchy so we can still have our roads and bridges but for stuff like forced SSM cake baking I think we can take a page out of the prog playbook when they were arguing against the Religious Right and say that morality, beyond whats necessary for basic stability should be a private affair, and not actively managed and instilled by the State.
iamnothere 7y ago
Different people have different values, and one person's tolerance is another's oppression. (The more authoritarian sides of the Left and Right each see opponents as "too tolerant" of different things.) Recent studies have suggested that there may be some fundamental cognitive factors that control political alignment. They may even be genetic. If this turns out to be true, are you still OK with forcing the other side to live by your "correct" rules? Isn't that just tribalism and conquest?
- Retra 7y ago
  Just because people have different values does not mean we don't share values, and more importantly, that we don't share reality. The things that I am intolerant toward are a disregard for the facts, a disregard for demonstrated relevance, and a disregard for the legitimacy of expertise and aggregate authority. >Isn't that just tribalism and conquest? I mean, if you're saying that this conflict is an integral part of human nature, then you're not asking me to change my mind; you're giving me a justification for why I don't have to. That knife cuts both ways. This is always the problem I have when trying to reason about American conservatism; if God gave you your riches, then if you lose them, attribute it to God. If might makes right, then I am not wrong to deny it so long as that denial leads to victory. Etc.. There's nothing there to tell me I'm wrong, only that people disagree. So wrongness has to be a kind of aggregate disagreement, and that leads to liberalism. Both roads lead to liberalism.
  - iamnothere 7y ago
    > Just because people have different values does not mean we don't share values, and more importantly, that we don't share reality. The things that I am intolerant toward are a disregard for the facts, a disregard for demonstrated relevance, and a disregard for the legitimacy of expertise and aggregate authority. We may share the same physical reality, but many facets of reality that are critical to human experience may not be shared. In particular, and I am aware that this contradicts what you've just said, values seem to be very different across cultural boundaries. There are some general shared values that are often shared across cultures, but these shared values are also not the values that people care most about on a day-to-day basis. (Not too many people out there protesting murder, theft, etc in any organized sense.) The values that people seem to care most about are the ones that distinguish them from other tribes. These values are often more important to people than basic needs. People will starve themselves over values, they will kill themselves over values. You can say they shouldn't. Obviously they disagree! > I mean, if you're saying that this conflict is an integral part of human nature, then you're not asking me to change my mind; you're giving me a justification for why I don't have to. It is an integral part of human nature. I'm not sure it can be "solved" without creating a truly oppressive superstate and permanently reducing human genetic diversity. Conflict is inherent to being alive; the best you can do is keep it on a slow boil.

by Retra 7y ago

cybersnowflake 7y ago

Asking that power be decentralized as feasible with more local levels and ultimately the individual as the default repository may be a moral exhortation like a call to communism in semantic sense but the end result if successful certainly wouldn't be the same. I'm not asking for anarchy so we can still have our roads and bridges but for stuff like forced SSM cake baking I think we can take a page out of the prog playbook when they were arguing against the Religious Right and say that morality, beyond whats necessary for basic stability should be a private affair, and not actively managed and instilled by the State.

iamnothere 7y ago

Different people have different values, and one person's tolerance is another's oppression. (The more authoritarian sides of the Left and Right each see opponents as "too tolerant" of different things.) Recent studies have suggested that there may be some fundamental cognitive factors that control political alignment. They may even be genetic. If this turns out to be true, are you still OK with forcing the other side to live by your "correct" rules? Isn't that just tribalism and conquest?

Retra 7y ago
Just because people have different values does not mean we don't share values, and more importantly, that we don't share reality. The things that I am intolerant toward are a disregard for the facts, a disregard for demonstrated relevance, and a disregard for the legitimacy of expertise and aggregate authority. >Isn't that just tribalism and conquest? I mean, if you're saying that this conflict is an integral part of human nature, then you're not asking me to change my mind; you're giving me a justification for why I don't have to. That knife cuts both ways. This is always the problem I have when trying to reason about American conservatism; if God gave you your riches, then if you lose them, attribute it to God. If might makes right, then I am not wrong to deny it so long as that denial leads to victory. Etc.. There's nothing there to tell me I'm wrong, only that people disagree. So wrongness has to be a kind of aggregate disagreement, and that leads to liberalism. Both roads lead to liberalism.
- iamnothere 7y ago
  > Just because people have different values does not mean we don't share values, and more importantly, that we don't share reality. The things that I am intolerant toward are a disregard for the facts, a disregard for demonstrated relevance, and a disregard for the legitimacy of expertise and aggregate authority. We may share the same physical reality, but many facets of reality that are critical to human experience may not be shared. In particular, and I am aware that this contradicts what you've just said, values seem to be very different across cultural boundaries. There are some general shared values that are often shared across cultures, but these shared values are also not the values that people care most about on a day-to-day basis. (Not too many people out there protesting murder, theft, etc in any organized sense.) The values that people seem to care most about are the ones that distinguish them from other tribes. These values are often more important to people than basic needs. People will starve themselves over values, they will kill themselves over values. You can say they shouldn't. Obviously they disagree! > I mean, if you're saying that this conflict is an integral part of human nature, then you're not asking me to change my mind; you're giving me a justification for why I don't have to. It is an integral part of human nature. I'm not sure it can be "solved" without creating a truly oppressive superstate and permanently reducing human genetic diversity. Conflict is inherent to being alive; the best you can do is keep it on a slow boil.