8 ms·

What a clusterF is modern Mac hardware: - Keyboards with much worse action that are more prone to failure (from dust no less) and require replacing the motherb

by cletus 7y ago

What a clusterF is modern Mac hardware: - Keyboards with much worse action that are more prone to failure (from dust no less) and require replacing the motherboard to fix... all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness. - Loss (over the years) of the ability to upgrade the CPU, SSD or memory; - Display failures due to broken ribbon cables; - The USB-C clusterF; and - Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts). All for a premium price. Go back 5 years and you have two great choices: 1. The 13" Macbook Air for under $1500, which was a great compromise of power, portability and affordability; or 2. The 15" Retina Macbook Pro, which was more upgradeable, less failure prone and had a better keyboard. I bought a 2017 MBP and I deeply regret it. Luckily it hasn't failed yet. If and when it does I may be better off just throwing it away. How did Apple lose its way so badly here? Serviceability matters. It's too expensive to be a throwaway device. So who really cares if your throwaway $44k device can now have 8 instead of 6 cores? Really?

X-Istence 7y ago
> - Keyboards with much worse action that are more prone to failure (from dust no less) and require replacing the motherboard to fix... all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness. The keyboard replacement replaces the top-case, your motherboard and everything else is transplanted over to the new top-case.
- hartator 7y ago
  The motherboard is not replaced. “Only” the battery, top case, touch-bar, and keyboard.
  - 9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
    That's exactly what them person you're replying to said.
golfer 7y ago
But look at what we got in return... The laptops are now 1mm thinner than they were before!
rz2k 7y ago
I have a 2016 MacBook Pro, and "luckily" the anti-glare coating failed. There is a free repair program for the screen appearing stained, and replacing the display panel replaced the integrated display ribbon cable that had also failed. I don't think dust is the cause of all the keyboard failures. I had been using it as a desktop computer for over a year. It isn't in a dusty room, and the computer still spends months without being opened. Furthermore, sometimes on waking a key will be stuck in a pressed condition, such that I can't successfully enter a password to log in. Pressing all of the keys doesn't reset the state, but force rebooting does. If I do use the MacBook Pro's keyboard some of the keys intermittently fail to detect presses, but because there are both problems with keys being stuck engaged, and keys failing to detect presses, I suspect that the switches have some flaw where they can generally degrade due to heat rather than only dust fouling the contacts. Anyway, I haven't yet had the keyboard replaced, because the failure is still intermittent, and I'd like to get a fresh keyboard right before selling it, sometime after a teardown confirms whether this new model is really likely to be less error prone, or maybe after a more thorough redesign for Ice Lake chips in the 13" model later this year or early next year.
- jiveturkey 7y ago
  > I don't think dust is the cause of all the keyboard failures. well, this is known to be the cause
  - Mindwipe 7y ago
    Not really. It's a cause. But it's also fairly clear given there are key clusters that are more likely to fail that it's heat related sometimes too. There's probably not a single cause. And indeed, some of the fixes are probably making some of the other issues worse (I would not be at all surprised if the dust membrane is exacerbating the heat issues, and that's why the issues with the MacBook Air are just as bad if not worse than the other machines).
- solitus 7y ago
  The 13" 2015 model had the same issue. They replaced my screen for free a few months ago.
gowld 7y ago
Apple has always made aggressively experimental design changes that were a mix of steps forward and backward. Hockey puck mice, mass logic board failures, soldered flash drives and batteries, ports and dongles, etc. People always forget the flaws of the past.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  This is a really good point. Although I still inexplicably love the matte screen swivel head G3s...
burtonator 7y ago
> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts). I will NEVER forgive them for this. Jobs was RIGHT when he said this was a major innovation over everyone else. Now Apple is either saying he was wrong or THEY are wrong. They're not BOTH right. My 2015 is the last MBP I will ever buy and it's aging fast... I think it's hackingtosh from here on out. I primarily use Ubuntu but I have to have a Mac as our app runs cross platform and I need somethign to test with.
- stoppergoo 7y ago
  Really just the MagSafe is the big difference they lost. Supposedly the keyboard sucks, why don’t they just fix it or go back to the previous iteration. Either way I think these are still the best notebooks you can buy. Ubuntu doesn’t even work right on my dell desktop - it never remembers dual monitor settings, even with Nvidia official drivers installed. When I open my MacBook Air I can just use it without waiting or worrying. That much is still the same; except now you have to worry about someone tripping over your power cord
  - ridicter 7y ago
    For what it's worth, my multi-monitor settings are remembered just fine in Ubuntu 19.04. I _just_ switched from Macbook Pro to Dell XPS 13/Ubuntu, and I couldn't get multi-monitor to work for Ubuntu 18.04, but everything worked out of box for 19.04. But I don't know if upgrading will mess with any legacy config you may have!
    - stoppergoo 7y ago
      Thanks!!! I am upgraded from 14 to 18 and was disappointed that not even Ubuntu got multi monitor to remember basic settings properly. I’ll give 19 a shot then !!
  - Osiris 7y ago
    Going back would be admitting they were wrong, and they couldn't say "the thinnest MacBook ever" at their next announcement.
kvartz 7y ago
For me main indicator is that 2015 MacBooks are still selling at a rather good price.
chaostheory 7y ago
> all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness. I second this. It's been years now, and I still don't really see TouchBar as indispensable. Not enough apps make special use of it yet. I don't care as much about thinness either. I just want something that works where I can replace or add RAM and storage myself. As for magsafe, you can get a 3rd party replacement if you're willing to spend $50. The only reason I stayed is because of MacOS, but current Apple hardware has gone into a weird direction. It's harder and harder to stay when Windows now ships with Linux.
CivBase 7y ago
> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts). I've been wondering for a while now why USB-IF hasn't defined a standard magnetic connector. I'm surprised none of the flagship smartphones or laptops have tried to push their own magnetic connector. They're desperate to differentiate themselves in the current market and wireless charging is falling behind quickly due to physical constraints. I use a volta cable for my phone and it is wonderful. It handles power and data just fine. My only issue is that I have to use a dongle. There's clearly demand for it. Magsafe and volta have proven its effectiveness. It would be a great solution for portable consumer electronics like laptops, cameras, tablets, and phones. What's holding it back?
- kalleboo 7y ago
  I think Apple has a patent
  - std_throwaway 7y ago
    Last I heard someone else has the patent. Not Apple. Maybe someone with background information can shed light on the story.
    - kalleboo 7y ago
      Apple does have a patent, but I don't know if it's the only one http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=7311526.PN.&OS=PN/7311526&RS=PN/7311526 http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=...
village-idiot 7y ago
I actually really like USB-C. The ability for any cable to work at any port is extremely nice, so I don’t have to run the power cord awkwardly just to meet the left side of the laptop.

by cletus 7y ago

X-Istence 7y ago

> - Keyboards with much worse action that are more prone to failure (from dust no less) and require replacing the motherboard to fix... all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness. The keyboard replacement replaces the top-case, your motherboard and everything else is transplanted over to the new top-case.

hartator 7y ago
The motherboard is not replaced. “Only” the battery, top case, touch-bar, and keyboard.
- 9935c101ab17a66 7y ago
  That's exactly what them person you're replying to said.

golfer 7y ago

But look at what we got in return... The laptops are now 1mm thinner than they were before!

rz2k 7y ago

I have a 2016 MacBook Pro, and "luckily" the anti-glare coating failed. There is a free repair program for the screen appearing stained, and replacing the display panel replaced the integrated display ribbon cable that had also failed. I don't think dust is the cause of all the keyboard failures. I had been using it as a desktop computer for over a year. It isn't in a dusty room, and the computer still spends months without being opened. Furthermore, sometimes on waking a key will be stuck in a pressed condition, such that I can't successfully enter a password to log in. Pressing all of the keys doesn't reset the state, but force rebooting does. If I do use the MacBook Pro's keyboard some of the keys intermittently fail to detect presses, but because there are both problems with keys being stuck engaged, and keys failing to detect presses, I suspect that the switches have some flaw where they can generally degrade due to heat rather than only dust fouling the contacts. Anyway, I haven't yet had the keyboard replaced, because the failure is still intermittent, and I'd like to get a fresh keyboard right before selling it, sometime after a teardown confirms whether this new model is really likely to be less error prone, or maybe after a more thorough redesign for Ice Lake chips in the 13" model later this year or early next year.

jiveturkey 7y ago
> I don't think dust is the cause of all the keyboard failures. well, this is known to be the cause
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  Not really. It's a cause. But it's also fairly clear given there are key clusters that are more likely to fail that it's heat related sometimes too. There's probably not a single cause. And indeed, some of the fixes are probably making some of the other issues worse (I would not be at all surprised if the dust membrane is exacerbating the heat issues, and that's why the issues with the MacBook Air are just as bad if not worse than the other machines).
solitus 7y ago
The 13" 2015 model had the same issue. They replaced my screen for free a few months ago.

gowld 7y ago

Apple has always made aggressively experimental design changes that were a mix of steps forward and backward. Hockey puck mice, mass logic board failures, soldered flash drives and batteries, ports and dongles, etc. People always forget the flaws of the past.

IggleSniggle 7y ago
This is a really good point. Although I still inexplicably love the matte screen swivel head G3s...

burtonator 7y ago

> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts). I will NEVER forgive them for this. Jobs was RIGHT when he said this was a major innovation over everyone else. Now Apple is either saying he was wrong or THEY are wrong. They're not BOTH right. My 2015 is the last MBP I will ever buy and it's aging fast... I think it's hackingtosh from here on out. I primarily use Ubuntu but I have to have a Mac as our app runs cross platform and I need somethign to test with.

stoppergoo 7y ago
Really just the MagSafe is the big difference they lost. Supposedly the keyboard sucks, why don’t they just fix it or go back to the previous iteration. Either way I think these are still the best notebooks you can buy. Ubuntu doesn’t even work right on my dell desktop - it never remembers dual monitor settings, even with Nvidia official drivers installed. When I open my MacBook Air I can just use it without waiting or worrying. That much is still the same; except now you have to worry about someone tripping over your power cord
- ridicter 7y ago
  For what it's worth, my multi-monitor settings are remembered just fine in Ubuntu 19.04. I _just_ switched from Macbook Pro to Dell XPS 13/Ubuntu, and I couldn't get multi-monitor to work for Ubuntu 18.04, but everything worked out of box for 19.04. But I don't know if upgrading will mess with any legacy config you may have!
  - stoppergoo 7y ago
    Thanks!!! I am upgraded from 14 to 18 and was disappointed that not even Ubuntu got multi monitor to remember basic settings properly. I’ll give 19 a shot then !!
- Osiris 7y ago
  Going back would be admitting they were wrong, and they couldn't say "the thinnest MacBook ever" at their next announcement.

kvartz 7y ago

For me main indicator is that 2015 MacBooks are still selling at a rather good price.

chaostheory 7y ago

> all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness. I second this. It's been years now, and I still don't really see TouchBar as indispensable. Not enough apps make special use of it yet. I don't care as much about thinness either. I just want something that works where I can replace or add RAM and storage myself. As for magsafe, you can get a 3rd party replacement if you're willing to spend $50. The only reason I stayed is because of MacOS, but current Apple hardware has gone into a weird direction. It's harder and harder to stay when Windows now ships with Linux.

CivBase 7y ago

> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts). I've been wondering for a while now why USB-IF hasn't defined a standard magnetic connector. I'm surprised none of the flagship smartphones or laptops have tried to push their own magnetic connector. They're desperate to differentiate themselves in the current market and wireless charging is falling behind quickly due to physical constraints. I use a volta cable for my phone and it is wonderful. It handles power and data just fine. My only issue is that I have to use a dongle. There's clearly demand for it. Magsafe and volta have proven its effectiveness. It would be a great solution for portable consumer electronics like laptops, cameras, tablets, and phones. What's holding it back?

kalleboo 7y ago
I think Apple has a patent
- std_throwaway 7y ago
  Last I heard someone else has the patent. Not Apple. Maybe someone with background information can shed light on the story.
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    Apple does have a patent, but I don't know if it's the only one http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=7311526.PN.&OS=PN/7311526&RS=PN/7311526 http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=...

village-idiot 7y ago

I actually really like USB-C. The ability for any cable to work at any port is extremely nice, so I don’t have to run the power cord awkwardly just to meet the left side of the laptop.