6 ms·

... Because that's true, depending on the situation. https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-universal-health-care-is-the-goal-dont-copy-canad

by asdf21 7y ago

... Because that's true, depending on the situation. https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-universal-health-care-is-the-goal-dont-copy-canada/#27492adb78d5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-uni... >The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.

luckydata 7y ago
It's true in the bay area to see an ENT doctor too. So your point is?
- ameister14 7y ago
  The average wait to see a specialist across the US is closer to 24 days, the longest it's ever been - the average in Canada is 21 weeks, also the longest recorded.
  - luckydata 7y ago
    since you seem to have the data handy, could you check what's the average number of people filing for bankruptcy for medical reasons in Canada vs. the US per year?
forkandwait 7y ago
It's also true in the US, depending on the situation. And if you are lucky enough to have insurance and see a doctor at all.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sriram_sun 7y ago
I had Kaiser. A month-and-a-half to see a specialist. Any specialist appointment - Heart or Brain is easily 2- 3 months out.
- jedberg 7y ago
  I think it depends on the area. I have Kaiser now, in the Silicon Valley, and I've never waited more than a day for a specialist. Oftentimes I can even go in the same visit as my GP after he refers me. I think it's the same in Canada. In some areas there are no waits and in other areas there are long waits. I think they need to look at percentiles to get a more accurate measure.
  - sriram_sun 7y ago
    I'm in SoCal. Similar wait times for HMO.
  - lostlogin 7y ago
    How does that work? Is the specialist sitting there with no patients, waiting for a call?
    - jedberg 7y ago
      It seems that way. When I use the online booking tool they tend to have gaps.
    - Alex63 7y ago
      First, understand that there isn't really a Canadian federal health care system. The Canadian government (federal) transfers funds to the provinces, which operate health plans for provincial residents. The provincial health plans control the number of available specialists. A health care provider can only bill the provincial plan if they have a billing number, and the provincial plans manage billing numbers to limit/encourage specialists and to make sure doctors provide services in less populous areas. I don't know if it's still the case, but historically there was no private alternative available (so doctors couldn't operate a private practice that didn't need a billing number from the provincial plan). If provinces chose to allow private practices, the federal government threatened to withhold funds from the plan. As with most western democracies, Canadian doctors are well compensated in comparison to the rest of society. But it is generally understood that they can make more money in the US if they qualify for immigration (and many can because of rules allowing people with specialist skills to get immigrant visas). This also contributes to reduced supply of specialists, and longer waiting times. To get to see one of the available specialists in Canada, you have to have a referral from a primary care provider. Here in the US (in my experience) a referral is as simple as saying to your GP, "I want to see a cardiologist." Then your GP says "Oh, sure, this one's very good. I'll refer you." In Canada, your GP has to follow plan guidelines for referrals, and confirm that it is warranted. Then you get on the waiting list for the specialist. You'll wait for a consultation. At the consultation the specialist will determine whether or not you need treatment, and the urgency. Then you go on the waiting list for treatment. Of course, Canadians with the financial resources are free to travel to other countries to obtain medical treatment more quickly. The provincial medical plans do not pay for treatments obtained outside of Canada. Medical "tourism" is not that unusual, including travel to the US and other countries.
vkou 7y ago
In the capitalist paradise of the United States, as I sit here, covered by top-of-the-line health insurance... My wife needed 3 months to schedule a sleep doctor appointment, 3 months to schedule a minimally-invasive surgery (That manages to bill her, and the insurer wrong), and every time she needs a re-fill of her prescriptions, it's a complete fucking crap-shoot of whether or not: 1. The manufacturer managed to produce enough pills to fill its orders. 2. The pharmacy bothers to call her, to notify that the prescriptions are in. 3. That the prescriptions are actually in, and that she didn't waste her time walking to the grocery store. Meanwhile, on my side of things, I end up watching my insurance get billed $750 for 5 minutes of a doctor's (And 15 minutes of his assistant's) time. This is truly the most humanitarian, efficient, and accountable medical system on the face of the planet. > Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. The term you're looking for is 'Non-life-threatening'.
- bshipp 7y ago
  That has been my experience. I've walked into an ER twice with heart palpitations. The first time I had an EKG, chest x-ray, and specialist consult and was in and out within 45 minutes. The second time was more serious and I was admitted, treated, seen by a cardiologist, and sent to a cardiac ward for overnight monitoring without being taken off the gurney. I know people who have walked in to their GP to investigate a lump in their breast and been under the knife a week later. They don't mess around with serious time-sensitive stuff. But I have heard that the wait time for old people who need hip or knee replacements is quite excessive.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. This is nowhere close to being true. Patients frequently demand treatment that the doctor, left to his own devices, wouldn't give. My least favorite example of this comes from China, where people will go to the hospital to get intravenous saline solution for a common cold, but it's ubiquitous everywhere including the US.
numakerg 7y ago
>This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured. Why? Are there more sick people? Are there fewer doctors and resourced? I've seen many articles covering the issue, but nothing that provides a concrete explanation for why a system used to work but doesn't anymore.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  > Are there more sick people? Yes, mainly due to an ageing population and partly due to obesity. An increasingly old and obese population needs more healthcare and is more complicated and expensive to treat.
- yourduskquibble 7y ago
  Economic incentives (or lack there of) under socialism. There's too much demand for the supply at the price established ("free").
  - fao_ 7y ago
    I don't think this is quite true. And if I were to accept it as a hypothetical, what you are saying is that if too many people need to see a specialist, many of them should outright not be able to because they do not have enough resources. Which is ethically horrific.
    - yourduskquibble 7y ago
      No I'm saying the supply is artificially constrained by the price of "free" so there is less incentive to go into medicine, hence shortages at the price demanded.
      - jimmaswell 7y ago
        Are you insinuiating doctors work for free in these countries?

by asdf21 7y ago

luckydata 7y ago

It's true in the bay area to see an ENT doctor too. So your point is?

ameister14 7y ago
The average wait to see a specialist across the US is closer to 24 days, the longest it's ever been - the average in Canada is 21 weeks, also the longest recorded.
- luckydata 7y ago
  since you seem to have the data handy, could you check what's the average number of people filing for bankruptcy for medical reasons in Canada vs. the US per year?

forkandwait 7y ago

It's also true in the US, depending on the situation. And if you are lucky enough to have insurance and see a doctor at all.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

sriram_sun 7y ago

I had Kaiser. A month-and-a-half to see a specialist. Any specialist appointment - Heart or Brain is easily 2- 3 months out.

jedberg 7y ago
I think it depends on the area. I have Kaiser now, in the Silicon Valley, and I've never waited more than a day for a specialist. Oftentimes I can even go in the same visit as my GP after he refers me. I think it's the same in Canada. In some areas there are no waits and in other areas there are long waits. I think they need to look at percentiles to get a more accurate measure.
- sriram_sun 7y ago
  I'm in SoCal. Similar wait times for HMO.
- lostlogin 7y ago
  How does that work? Is the specialist sitting there with no patients, waiting for a call?
  - jedberg 7y ago
    It seems that way. When I use the online booking tool they tend to have gaps.
  - Alex63 7y ago
    First, understand that there isn't really a Canadian federal health care system. The Canadian government (federal) transfers funds to the provinces, which operate health plans for provincial residents. The provincial health plans control the number of available specialists. A health care provider can only bill the provincial plan if they have a billing number, and the provincial plans manage billing numbers to limit/encourage specialists and to make sure doctors provide services in less populous areas. I don't know if it's still the case, but historically there was no private alternative available (so doctors couldn't operate a private practice that didn't need a billing number from the provincial plan). If provinces chose to allow private practices, the federal government threatened to withhold funds from the plan. As with most western democracies, Canadian doctors are well compensated in comparison to the rest of society. But it is generally understood that they can make more money in the US if they qualify for immigration (and many can because of rules allowing people with specialist skills to get immigrant visas). This also contributes to reduced supply of specialists, and longer waiting times. To get to see one of the available specialists in Canada, you have to have a referral from a primary care provider. Here in the US (in my experience) a referral is as simple as saying to your GP, "I want to see a cardiologist." Then your GP says "Oh, sure, this one's very good. I'll refer you." In Canada, your GP has to follow plan guidelines for referrals, and confirm that it is warranted. Then you get on the waiting list for the specialist. You'll wait for a consultation. At the consultation the specialist will determine whether or not you need treatment, and the urgency. Then you go on the waiting list for treatment. Of course, Canadians with the financial resources are free to travel to other countries to obtain medical treatment more quickly. The provincial medical plans do not pay for treatments obtained outside of Canada. Medical "tourism" is not that unusual, including travel to the US and other countries.

vkou 7y ago

In the capitalist paradise of the United States, as I sit here, covered by top-of-the-line health insurance... My wife needed 3 months to schedule a sleep doctor appointment, 3 months to schedule a minimally-invasive surgery (That manages to bill her, and the insurer wrong), and every time she needs a re-fill of her prescriptions, it's a complete fucking crap-shoot of whether or not: 1. The manufacturer managed to produce enough pills to fill its orders. 2. The pharmacy bothers to call her, to notify that the prescriptions are in. 3. That the prescriptions are actually in, and that she didn't waste her time walking to the grocery store. Meanwhile, on my side of things, I end up watching my insurance get billed $750 for 5 minutes of a doctor's (And 15 minutes of his assistant's) time. This is truly the most humanitarian, efficient, and accountable medical system on the face of the planet. > Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. The term you're looking for is 'Non-life-threatening'.

bshipp 7y ago
That has been my experience. I've walked into an ER twice with heart palpitations. The first time I had an EKG, chest x-ray, and specialist consult and was in and out within 45 minutes. The second time was more serious and I was admitted, treated, seen by a cardiologist, and sent to a cardiac ward for overnight monitoring without being taken off the gurney. I know people who have walked in to their GP to investigate a lump in their breast and been under the knife a week later. They don't mess around with serious time-sensitive stuff. But I have heard that the wait time for old people who need hip or knee replacements is quite excessive.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> 'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it. This is nowhere close to being true. Patients frequently demand treatment that the doctor, left to his own devices, wouldn't give. My least favorite example of this comes from China, where people will go to the hospital to get intravenous saline solution for a common cold, but it's ubiquitous everywhere including the US.

numakerg 7y ago

>This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured. Why? Are there more sick people? Are there fewer doctors and resourced? I've seen many articles covering the issue, but nothing that provides a concrete explanation for why a system used to work but doesn't anymore.

jdietrich 7y ago
> Are there more sick people? Yes, mainly due to an ageing population and partly due to obesity. An increasingly old and obese population needs more healthcare and is more complicated and expensive to treat.
yourduskquibble 7y ago
Economic incentives (or lack there of) under socialism. There's too much demand for the supply at the price established ("free").
- fao_ 7y ago
  I don't think this is quite true. And if I were to accept it as a hypothetical, what you are saying is that if too many people need to see a specialist, many of them should outright not be able to because they do not have enough resources. Which is ethically horrific.
  - yourduskquibble 7y ago
    No I'm saying the supply is artificially constrained by the price of "free" so there is less incentive to go into medicine, hence shortages at the price demanded.
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      Are you insinuiating doctors work for free in these countries?