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> But that’s completely at odds with how most software engineers work these days. Most software is grounded in an open source development and deployment tool ch

> But that’s completely at odds with how most software engineers work these days. Most software is grounded in an open source development and deployment tool chain. There is a market for proprietary developer tools, but it had been dwindling since its prime-time in the 90s. that is simply not true and a rather insular view. i build large complex systems, and all of it is done with proprietary software. in fact, it is practically impossible to do my job exclusively with open source software. most open source software is completely unreliable and ill-fitted for many domains. and just try getting good support for use cases only found in industrial use from most open source developers. i have tried, and it never works out. the response is usually "you figure it out and let us know". furthermore, a lot of proprietary software is fairly open source in that you get access to a fair amount of source code. and it isn't dwindling at all.

reikonomusha 7y ago
I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I am claiming it’s uncommon to use closed source developer tools (compilers, interpreters, standard libraries, etc.). The mere fact that the most popular programming languages in the world are provided as open source implementations is a testament to that. There are some stragglers. I think K is closed source. Commercial implementations of APL are closed source but somewhat popular. “Source [partially] available” and “open source” are generally considered distinct concepts these days. See for instance [0] or even look up what Google’s dictionary says about the term. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Source_Definition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Source_Definition
- eps 7y ago
  Nearly all professional Windows development has been and still is done in Visual Studio. This alone makes your "uncommon" claim void, and there are other examples outside of the Windows ecosystem equally well-rooted in proprietory tools.
  - romantype 7y ago
    I have changed 7 jobs in 15 years so far and not once I have done Windows development in Visual Studio. Nor have I seen anyone in my company doing so. I would say Windows development in Visual Studio is by far uncommon when you compare with technologies like Python, C (with GCC or Clang), Java (OpenJDK), JavaScript, etc.
    - nikofeyn 7y ago
      c# is one of the most popular languages in the world. what are those people using?
      - reikonomusha 7y ago
        Roslyn? https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn
    - new4thaccount 7y ago
      I work with a lot of C# devs using Visual Studio for some things and VSCode for others. I assume it is not uncommon in industry.
  - phillipcarter 7y ago
    It's worth noting that the Visual Studio umbrella also involves many OSS technologies. If you're writing C# or F# code targeting .NET Core, the language, compilers, libraries, runtime, build tools, and parts of the IDE tooling are all open source.
  - reikonomusha 7y ago
    Writing code in C or C++ does not lock me down in any way. Using the Windows OS APIs does, yes, but there are entirely robust ways of writing C++ on Windows using an open source toolchain that are popular. And as we have seen, Microsoft is increasingly going in a direction of open sourcing more and more of their tooling. Look at everything that has gone on with C#, F#, the .NET stack, etc. So while I agree with you that MSVC is used, and used often, I don’t think that’s a strong argument. Now if MS had their own language (they did...) that was closed source (it was...), the argument would be more akin to this Wolfram debate. But MS learned that wouldn’t fly, and adopted an OSS strategy.
new4thaccount 7y ago
I will say that although most of the proprietary software that I use is closed source, one major provider has so little documentation that they're pretty much forced by customers to provide source and that is super nice. I can actually call up a dev, tell them where the problem is located, and how to fix it. This saves a lot of money in bug patching.

reikonomusha 7y ago

I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I am claiming it’s uncommon to use closed source developer tools (compilers, interpreters, standard libraries, etc.). The mere fact that the most popular programming languages in the world are provided as open source implementations is a testament to that. There are some stragglers. I think K is closed source. Commercial implementations of APL are closed source but somewhat popular. “Source [partially] available” and “open source” are generally considered distinct concepts these days. See for instance [0] or even look up what Google’s dictionary says about the term. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Source_Definition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Open_Source_Definition

eps 7y ago
Nearly all professional Windows development has been and still is done in Visual Studio. This alone makes your "uncommon" claim void, and there are other examples outside of the Windows ecosystem equally well-rooted in proprietory tools.
- romantype 7y ago
  I have changed 7 jobs in 15 years so far and not once I have done Windows development in Visual Studio. Nor have I seen anyone in my company doing so. I would say Windows development in Visual Studio is by far uncommon when you compare with technologies like Python, C (with GCC or Clang), Java (OpenJDK), JavaScript, etc.
  - nikofeyn 7y ago
    c# is one of the most popular languages in the world. what are those people using?
    - reikonomusha 7y ago
      Roslyn? https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn
  - new4thaccount 7y ago
    I work with a lot of C# devs using Visual Studio for some things and VSCode for others. I assume it is not uncommon in industry.
- phillipcarter 7y ago
  It's worth noting that the Visual Studio umbrella also involves many OSS technologies. If you're writing C# or F# code targeting .NET Core, the language, compilers, libraries, runtime, build tools, and parts of the IDE tooling are all open source.
- reikonomusha 7y ago
  Writing code in C or C++ does not lock me down in any way. Using the Windows OS APIs does, yes, but there are entirely robust ways of writing C++ on Windows using an open source toolchain that are popular. And as we have seen, Microsoft is increasingly going in a direction of open sourcing more and more of their tooling. Look at everything that has gone on with C#, F#, the .NET stack, etc. So while I agree with you that MSVC is used, and used often, I don’t think that’s a strong argument. Now if MS had their own language (they did...) that was closed source (it was...), the argument would be more akin to this Wolfram debate. But MS learned that wouldn’t fly, and adopted an OSS strategy.

new4thaccount 7y ago

I will say that although most of the proprietary software that I use is closed source, one major provider has so little documentation that they're pretty much forced by customers to provide source and that is super nice. I can actually call up a dev, tell them where the problem is located, and how to fix it. This saves a lot of money in bug patching.