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I have, for as long as I can remember, held the Sam Harris / Dawkins view that religion is nothing but an archaic and evil form of cattle management system. But

I have, for as long as I can remember, held the Sam Harris / Dawkins view that religion is nothing but an archaic and evil form of cattle management system. But the older I get and the more I contend with what religion actually is rather than what it is understood to be by the anti-theists, the more I approximate your understanding of the matter. The social fabric is being torn apart and there are virtually no institutions left to hold it together. This will most likely not end up in a very promising future for my generation and the ones to come after it.

FabHK 7y ago
Yes, but one reason they are torn apart is that people see the (terrible) flaws in these old systems of holding society together and abandon them, while new and better systems are slow to gain a foothold. Some places manage to have community without religion, and that, I think, is what one ought to aspire to. (Edit -> Some places)
- leereeves 7y ago
  People see the terrible flaws and little else because the media distorts the truth. The Westboro Baptist Church gets more media attention than a thousand inclusive churches.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Well, I think reading "holy" books is quite enough to see those flaws, and the media in many places are far too reverent to the regionally prevailing religion; but maybe that's a discussion for a different venue. My point pertinent to this discussion was that community is important, and thus it's a problem if community is based on wrong or unethical ideas. It puts you in a terrible quandary (consider also Nazi Germany, the Sowjet Union under Stalin, etc.).
    - leereeves 7y ago
      You can't fairly judge modern churches by the text of ancient books. Most churches have abandoned a literal interpretation of ancient holy books in favor of some variation of the idea that God's true message was distorted, embellished, or censored by the flawed humans who recorded it.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    I think the worldwide occurrence and generations-long cover-up of abuse in the CC has been a much bigger factor in pushing people away. WBC are known primarily for being attention-seeking nutjobs; they sit quite a bit lower on the spectrum of religious authority than the Catholic Church.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Are Hollywood or Washington any better? I think recent scandals are sufficient evidence that any large human organization is going to suffer from serious misconduct by powerful people. And that is in fact another (even better) example of selective coverage. That cover up by the CC has received vastly more coverage than churches doing good things.
      - rchaud 7y ago
        The topic was about the decline of the churche as a space for social connection, a role it has held for centuries across nearly every Christian community worldwide. How do you manage to wrangle "Hollywood" and "Washington" out of that?
        leereeves 7y ago
        I was discussing a broader topic, but if you want to narrow it to just that: how do you think scandals in the Catholic Church caused the decline of the church as a space for social connection in mostly Protestant America?
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
    So, are you saying that persecution of homosexuals was something only done by the Westboro Baptist Church? Or that the anti-abortion laws currently being implemented all over the US only exist because the members of the Westboro Baptist Church voted for them? Or that the Westboro Baptist Church were alone responsible for the ban on stem cell research? Or that the Westboro Baptist Church alone are the ones pushing for creationism to be taught in schools? ... The media certainly distorts the truth, but the idea that somehow only some very small religious fringe groups are responsible for all the terrible political decisions that have been and are being made exclusively on the basis of religious ideas is just absurd.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Linking religion to the persecution of homosexuals is another distortion of the truth. There are atheist governments (for example, China and Russia) who persecute homosexuals terribly [1] and many churches who support them. [2] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination...
      - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
        > Homosexuals are persecuted far worse in atheist China Which is relevant how? > and Russia ... because of religion? > And they are supported by many churches. Which is great. But also a very recent development. Before that, they were mostly a driving force behind the persecution. > Linking religion to that is another distortion of the truth. So, you are claiming that religions did not contribute significantly to the persecution of homosexuals in many parts of the world, neither in the recent past, nor right now, and that the resistance against equal rights for homosexuals is not significantly coming from religions?
        leereeves 7y ago
        The point is that you shouldn't judge all religions because some are bad, any more than you should judge all atheists by the behavior of Russia and China.
eastbayjake 7y ago
Nietzsche's proclamation that "God is dead" was not a joyful or triumphant one: https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/what-nietzsche-really-meant-by-god-is-dead https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/what-nietzsche-really-...

FabHK 7y ago

Yes, but one reason they are torn apart is that people see the (terrible) flaws in these old systems of holding society together and abandon them, while new and better systems are slow to gain a foothold. Some places manage to have community without religion, and that, I think, is what one ought to aspire to. (Edit -> Some places)

leereeves 7y ago
People see the terrible flaws and little else because the media distorts the truth. The Westboro Baptist Church gets more media attention than a thousand inclusive churches.
- FabHK 7y ago
  Well, I think reading "holy" books is quite enough to see those flaws, and the media in many places are far too reverent to the regionally prevailing religion; but maybe that's a discussion for a different venue. My point pertinent to this discussion was that community is important, and thus it's a problem if community is based on wrong or unethical ideas. It puts you in a terrible quandary (consider also Nazi Germany, the Sowjet Union under Stalin, etc.).
  - leereeves 7y ago
    You can't fairly judge modern churches by the text of ancient books. Most churches have abandoned a literal interpretation of ancient holy books in favor of some variation of the idea that God's true message was distorted, embellished, or censored by the flawed humans who recorded it.
- rchaud 7y ago
  I think the worldwide occurrence and generations-long cover-up of abuse in the CC has been a much bigger factor in pushing people away. WBC are known primarily for being attention-seeking nutjobs; they sit quite a bit lower on the spectrum of religious authority than the Catholic Church.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Are Hollywood or Washington any better? I think recent scandals are sufficient evidence that any large human organization is going to suffer from serious misconduct by powerful people. And that is in fact another (even better) example of selective coverage. That cover up by the CC has received vastly more coverage than churches doing good things.
    - rchaud 7y ago
      The topic was about the decline of the churche as a space for social connection, a role it has held for centuries across nearly every Christian community worldwide. How do you manage to wrangle "Hollywood" and "Washington" out of that?
      - leereeves 7y ago
        I was discussing a broader topic, but if you want to narrow it to just that: how do you think scandals in the Catholic Church caused the decline of the church as a space for social connection in mostly Protestant America?
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
  So, are you saying that persecution of homosexuals was something only done by the Westboro Baptist Church? Or that the anti-abortion laws currently being implemented all over the US only exist because the members of the Westboro Baptist Church voted for them? Or that the Westboro Baptist Church were alone responsible for the ban on stem cell research? Or that the Westboro Baptist Church alone are the ones pushing for creationism to be taught in schools? ... The media certainly distorts the truth, but the idea that somehow only some very small religious fringe groups are responsible for all the terrible political decisions that have been and are being made exclusively on the basis of religious ideas is just absurd.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Linking religion to the persecution of homosexuals is another distortion of the truth. There are atheist governments (for example, China and Russia) who persecute homosexuals terribly [1] and many churches who support them. [2] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_China 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_affirming_LGBT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination...
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 7y ago
      > Homosexuals are persecuted far worse in atheist China Which is relevant how? > and Russia ... because of religion? > And they are supported by many churches. Which is great. But also a very recent development. Before that, they were mostly a driving force behind the persecution. > Linking religion to that is another distortion of the truth. So, you are claiming that religions did not contribute significantly to the persecution of homosexuals in many parts of the world, neither in the recent past, nor right now, and that the resistance against equal rights for homosexuals is not significantly coming from religions?
      - leereeves 7y ago
        The point is that you shouldn't judge all religions because some are bad, any more than you should judge all atheists by the behavior of Russia and China.

eastbayjake 7y ago

Nietzsche's proclamation that "God is dead" was not a joyful or triumphant one: https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/what-nietzsche-really-meant-by-god-is-dead https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendricks/what-nietzsche-really-...