7 ms·

Wish there was an option to buy a 15 inch with no touch bar. I cannot find any suitable use for it on my current model, and I often hit items inadvertently due

Wish there was an option to buy a 15 inch with no touch bar. I cannot find any suitable use for it on my current model, and I often hit items inadvertently due to the lack of tactile feedback

VectorLock 7y ago
I feel like this is such a common refrain and yet when a maker like System76 tries to enter this market they still still fuck it all up by jamming a number pad in the side. Why do they all do this?
- acomjean 7y ago
  System76 is using OEM gaming laptops, so are probably a little limited in what they can do. They keys are slightly smaller (I think), but I have gotten used to them. I do like having the number pad though. The only thing I'm missing in my mac -> linux conversion, is lightroom (it seems to process raw files better). I'm getting better at the linux equivalent "darktable". I sometimes feel I would pay for software on linux to get a polished experience.
  - VectorLock 7y ago
    I don't even care about the Linux environment so much as I just want a physical enclosure equivalent in finish to the 2015 era 15" MacBookPro.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
neural_thing 7y ago
I just want a MBP that is a late 2013 body with modern hardware inside it. I know there are many others like me.
- tomca32 7y ago
  This so much. I would have upgraded at least twice already if that was an option. Sadly, it isn't and that's why I still use a pretty old model hoping it doesn't get too obsolete soon.
- klodolph 7y ago
  Are you sure you wouldn't rather have the 2008-2012 body? It's a bit easier to upgrade or repair. (At work I have a 15" MBP with the 2013 body. I'm eligible for upgrading it, but what would I replace it with that could possibly be better? Literally the only downside that I care about is the fact that most conference rooms at work no longer have magsafes lying around.)
  - rayiner 7y ago
    The big improvement in the 2012-2015 body is that getting rid of upgradability and the optical drive allowed putting in a huge battery (basically the max allowed on airplanes). It also cut the weight by more than a pound.
    - klodolph 7y ago
      Most of that is the optical drive, right?
  - lukifer 7y ago
    There's a lot to love in the 2013-2015 line, but the 2008-2012 series will always have my heart. I've never had a laptop so easy to work on, and being able to put two drives in a portable is icing on the cake.
    - asark 7y ago
      They keyboard on the '08-'12's noticeably better than in the '13-'15. Either is way better than the current version.
    - 3JPLW 7y ago
ForrestN 7y ago
Obviously all humans are different but this has never happened to me, not even once. I use it often and would be annoyed to go back. I would love to see real data about the Touch Bar, but sadly it’ll never get released. So we are all left to private theories and speculation and anecdotes.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  I have this problem, but the reason I think it's a problem is that I have to switch back-and-forth between a number of machines, some with touchbars, and some without. Just this month I got matching external keyboards for all, and it's been much easier having one set of muscle memory no matter what I'm doing.
rdl 7y ago
I would pay +$500 happily for that as a CTO config. Retaining the touchid button would be nice but not critical. I'd pay +$1000 for mechanical top row plus faceid. My problem is that due to wrist injury I angle my left hand enough that my pinky finger sometimes touches esc or other areas. I have remapped the touch bar but not having esc where I want it also sucks. Mechanical keys don't actuate merely on touch, so this is only a problem on apple. I'm considering remapping caps lock to esc and then putting tape over the touchbar, at least on the left side, to reduce sensitivity
post_break 7y ago
I wish there was an option to get the current specs into the 2015 macbook pro so I could avoid the keyboard.
asark 7y ago
Same problem here. Turns out one of my fingers brushes the area just above the number keys when performing certain modifier-key stretches. Never noticed it before, since it's not an issue with real buttons. Try locking it to only the main view (no per-app views) in the settings, then customize it to remove almost everything from it. Only way I was able to make it tolerable.
somatic 7y ago
Not only does Apple offer no option to buy a 15 inch with a full keyboard, they’ve also failed to upgrade the 13 inch model with this refresh. WTF, honestly.
- coldtea 7y ago
  This refresh was about the new high-end 8-core processors. Why would they update the "13 inch model" now?
  - apocalyptic0n3 7y ago
    It's not just this new high-end option that is missing, they haven't updated the 13 inch non-touchbar model _at all_. They completely skipped it in the refresh a few months ago and it is still using 7th gen processors (the touchbar model was updated, but only to an 8th gen processor. All 15 inch models were updated to 9th gen). I don't believe the non-touchbar model has received a single spec update since it was announced (though I am having difficulty determining that for sure)
    - ahakki 7y ago
      > 7th gen processors (the touchbar model was updated, but only to an 8th gen processor. All 15 inch models were updated to 9th gen). Well it's all 14nm Skylake, so that really doesn't matter at all.
    - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
      My suspicion (and I'm not alone in this) is that the 13" non-touchbar model -- Marco Arment dubbed it the "MacBook Escape," which I kind of love -- was intended to be the replacement for the MacBook Air, but it misunderstood a lot of what people liked about the Air. Now that Apple has reconsidered and actually updated the Air in its beloved wedge form factor, the MacBook Escape is kind of in philosophical limbo. Apple's modus operandi these days is to leave models around way past their reasonable expiration date, and I think that's what we're seeing here; there's a good chance that the Air is going to get a refresh within 12 months and when that happens, the Escape is going to go away. I also suspect today's bump is kind of a "holding pattern" update and Apple is working on a more significant redesign of their laptop line that's going to try and address the criticism they've been receiving over the last couple of years. (While it's possible we'll see the first sign of that at WWDC, seeing this press release just a couple weeks before WWDC makes me suspect that we won't see truly new laptops until 2020.)
carlmcqueen 7y ago
while software driven, there is a program you can get called Haptic Touch Bar, which vibrates when you hit the touchbar buttons. Not perfect, but at least sort of helpful. The main point, let me have a nice version without the touchbar is shared.
- sambroner 7y ago
  How does that work? I thought the haptic feedback is only in the trackpad.
  - mh- 7y ago
    It vibrates the trackpad. Works surprisingly well.
    - sambroner 7y ago
      Very cool.
- elsonrodriguez 7y ago
  Just tried this. Makes the touch bar much more usable. This makes me confident they'll add haptic feedback in the next Macbook.
nothis 7y ago
I never got why, if they really want the touch bar, they don't do both. F-keys and touch bar. I kinda would have welcomed this because the "fn" key is a horrible presence on any laptop keyboard anyway and I'd happily would have seen them delegate screen brightness and audio to the touch bar as a separate input.
- bitwize 7y ago
  My guess is that Apple is using the idiot bar as a trial balloon for abolishing physical keyboards altogether in favor of a touch interface (perhaps one with reconfigurable raised bumps for keys).
  - EForEndeavour 7y ago
    I sincerely hope you're wrong.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Getting away from Fn entirely is tough -- it's still useful as a way of simulating keys like PgUp/PgDn/Home/End (Fn+arrows) and forward delete (Fn+Backspace).
  - apricot 7y ago
    Why laptop makers deleted those keys from the keyboard I'll never understand. With just an extra column of keys to the right of Enter, you get delete, page up, page down, home, and end. All very useful keys, right at your fingertips. Panasonic does it right on their rugged laptops, and some other manufacturers still have those keys on some business models, but most have done away with them. I mean, look at the Dell XPS 15 keyboard. All that space on both sides of the keyboard, and yet they make us chord to do something as simple as Page Down.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > I never got why, if they really want the touch bar, they don't do both. F-keys and touch bar. That would consume room for the touchpad.
andyfleming 7y ago
I've been using MacBook Pro's with the touch bar for a while now, but I just picked up a MacBook Air (in addition to my MacBook Pro). It has a mechanical top row, with just the Touch ID button at the end and it's fantastic. It's so nice to have those keys back! I would pay $100 extra for a MacBook Pro without the touch bar. Here's the keyboard in all its glory (if you're curious): https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/MacBook-Air-Keyboard-10302018_inline.jpg.large.jpg https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/M...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- TimTheTinker 7y ago
  I actually really like the touch bar. I'd enjoy my 2016 MBP if it wasn't for the 2 keys that are now unreliable on the keyboard. That and the fact that it crashes every time the battery runs out.
  - bdamm 7y ago
    I like the touch bar too. I just want the Esc key back (although they did add the option to remap CapsLock to Esc, so hurray for that, but honestly it was a delayed feature.)
    - pfranz 7y ago
      CapsLock to Esc is a new feature? I've had control mapped to CapsLock for years...which is one reason I'm actively avoiding the TouchBar.
      - torstenvl 7y ago
        I have the Caps Lock key mapped to Control (for Unixy things, especially Emacs), and the Control key mapped to Escape -- which, incidentally, improves locality of the Force Quit key combination. I never use Caps Lock anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
coldtea 7y ago
No touch bar + better keyboard.
whateveracct 7y ago
https://github.com/niw/HapticKey https://github.com/niw/HapticKey
- lukifer 7y ago
  Cool, thanks for sharing! (Seems like a missed opportunity that Apple didn't add their own built-in haptics to the TouchBar.)
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    Yeah it would be great if the touchbar itself had haptic feedback. But the trackpad haptic feedback works surprisingly well.
legohead 7y ago
it's not responsive enough either. maybe I have a light touch, but I never had problems with the physical keyboard before. many times I go to pause my music or change volume and the buttons don't register for 2 or 3 presses. I thought the ESC key was going to be annoying, but it has ended up being everything else. also the huge trackpad is annoying. at home with the laptop on my lap I hit the edges all the time and send the mouse flying. had to turn off "hot corners" because I kept locking my laptop randomly.
rasfincher 7y ago
When I first got mine I found it fun to customize using BetterTouchTool, but I quickly realized it was no replacement for having hardware buttons. I miss them so much.
orcasauce 7y ago
I've refused my 3-year upgrade and fear the day I'll need a replacement for my late 2015 macbook. It's sad being stranded on hardware that is starting to show its age when the newer devices leave little to be desired from a usability standpoint. It also hurts that any replacement will be incompatible with my $150 dock.
protomyth 7y ago
Yeah, we are really down on the touch bar because one failed hard and another crashed so it showed nothing. It was quite the irritating thing. The keyboards are just a failure. I actually wish they had a touch id sensor on the back of the display like some Android phones so it is accessible when I have the machine plugged into a display. I really, really don't want thinner. I want the glued in battery banned, and a replaceable keyboard with ability to clean and replace the keys. I guess I just want a different definition of Pro.
dzhiurgis 7y ago
Also I'd love an option without external GPU. GPU switching is still slow and occasionally buggy, wastes power and has no benefit for me when writing any app.

Wish there was an option to buy a 15 inch with no touch bar. I cannot find any suitable use for it on my current model, and I often hit items inadvertently due to the lack of tactile feedback

VectorLock 7y ago

I feel like this is such a common refrain and yet when a maker like System76 tries to enter this market they still still fuck it all up by jamming a number pad in the side. Why do they all do this?

acomjean 7y ago
System76 is using OEM gaming laptops, so are probably a little limited in what they can do. They keys are slightly smaller (I think), but I have gotten used to them. I do like having the number pad though. The only thing I'm missing in my mac -> linux conversion, is lightroom (it seems to process raw files better). I'm getting better at the linux equivalent "darktable". I sometimes feel I would pay for software on linux to get a polished experience.
- VectorLock 7y ago
  I don't even care about the Linux environment so much as I just want a physical enclosure equivalent in finish to the 2015 era 15" MacBookPro.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

neural_thing 7y ago

I just want a MBP that is a late 2013 body with modern hardware inside it. I know there are many others like me.

tomca32 7y ago
This so much. I would have upgraded at least twice already if that was an option. Sadly, it isn't and that's why I still use a pretty old model hoping it doesn't get too obsolete soon.
klodolph 7y ago
Are you sure you wouldn't rather have the 2008-2012 body? It's a bit easier to upgrade or repair. (At work I have a 15" MBP with the 2013 body. I'm eligible for upgrading it, but what would I replace it with that could possibly be better? Literally the only downside that I care about is the fact that most conference rooms at work no longer have magsafes lying around.)
- rayiner 7y ago
  The big improvement in the 2012-2015 body is that getting rid of upgradability and the optical drive allowed putting in a huge battery (basically the max allowed on airplanes). It also cut the weight by more than a pound.
  - klodolph 7y ago
    Most of that is the optical drive, right?
- lukifer 7y ago
  There's a lot to love in the 2013-2015 line, but the 2008-2012 series will always have my heart. I've never had a laptop so easy to work on, and being able to put two drives in a portable is icing on the cake.
  - asark 7y ago
    They keyboard on the '08-'12's noticeably better than in the '13-'15. Either is way better than the current version.
  - 3JPLW 7y ago

ForrestN 7y ago

Obviously all humans are different but this has never happened to me, not even once. I use it often and would be annoyed to go back. I would love to see real data about the Touch Bar, but sadly it’ll never get released. So we are all left to private theories and speculation and anecdotes.

reaperducer 7y ago
I have this problem, but the reason I think it's a problem is that I have to switch back-and-forth between a number of machines, some with touchbars, and some without. Just this month I got matching external keyboards for all, and it's been much easier having one set of muscle memory no matter what I'm doing.

rdl 7y ago

I would pay +$500 happily for that as a CTO config. Retaining the touchid button would be nice but not critical. I'd pay +$1000 for mechanical top row plus faceid. My problem is that due to wrist injury I angle my left hand enough that my pinky finger sometimes touches esc or other areas. I have remapped the touch bar but not having esc where I want it also sucks. Mechanical keys don't actuate merely on touch, so this is only a problem on apple. I'm considering remapping caps lock to esc and then putting tape over the touchbar, at least on the left side, to reduce sensitivity

post_break 7y ago

I wish there was an option to get the current specs into the 2015 macbook pro so I could avoid the keyboard.

asark 7y ago

Same problem here. Turns out one of my fingers brushes the area just above the number keys when performing certain modifier-key stretches. Never noticed it before, since it's not an issue with real buttons. Try locking it to only the main view (no per-app views) in the settings, then customize it to remove almost everything from it. Only way I was able to make it tolerable.

somatic 7y ago

Not only does Apple offer no option to buy a 15 inch with a full keyboard, they’ve also failed to upgrade the 13 inch model with this refresh. WTF, honestly.

coldtea 7y ago
This refresh was about the new high-end 8-core processors. Why would they update the "13 inch model" now?
- apocalyptic0n3 7y ago
  It's not just this new high-end option that is missing, they haven't updated the 13 inch non-touchbar model _at all_. They completely skipped it in the refresh a few months ago and it is still using 7th gen processors (the touchbar model was updated, but only to an 8th gen processor. All 15 inch models were updated to 9th gen). I don't believe the non-touchbar model has received a single spec update since it was announced (though I am having difficulty determining that for sure)
  - ahakki 7y ago
    > 7th gen processors (the touchbar model was updated, but only to an 8th gen processor. All 15 inch models were updated to 9th gen). Well it's all 14nm Skylake, so that really doesn't matter at all.
  - chipotle_coyote 7y ago
    My suspicion (and I'm not alone in this) is that the 13" non-touchbar model -- Marco Arment dubbed it the "MacBook Escape," which I kind of love -- was intended to be the replacement for the MacBook Air, but it misunderstood a lot of what people liked about the Air. Now that Apple has reconsidered and actually updated the Air in its beloved wedge form factor, the MacBook Escape is kind of in philosophical limbo. Apple's modus operandi these days is to leave models around way past their reasonable expiration date, and I think that's what we're seeing here; there's a good chance that the Air is going to get a refresh within 12 months and when that happens, the Escape is going to go away. I also suspect today's bump is kind of a "holding pattern" update and Apple is working on a more significant redesign of their laptop line that's going to try and address the criticism they've been receiving over the last couple of years. (While it's possible we'll see the first sign of that at WWDC, seeing this press release just a couple weeks before WWDC makes me suspect that we won't see truly new laptops until 2020.)

carlmcqueen 7y ago

while software driven, there is a program you can get called Haptic Touch Bar, which vibrates when you hit the touchbar buttons. Not perfect, but at least sort of helpful. The main point, let me have a nice version without the touchbar is shared.

sambroner 7y ago
How does that work? I thought the haptic feedback is only in the trackpad.
- mh- 7y ago
  It vibrates the trackpad. Works surprisingly well.
  - sambroner 7y ago
    Very cool.
elsonrodriguez 7y ago
Just tried this. Makes the touch bar much more usable. This makes me confident they'll add haptic feedback in the next Macbook.

nothis 7y ago

I never got why, if they really want the touch bar, they don't do both. F-keys and touch bar. I kinda would have welcomed this because the "fn" key is a horrible presence on any laptop keyboard anyway and I'd happily would have seen them delegate screen brightness and audio to the touch bar as a separate input.

bitwize 7y ago
My guess is that Apple is using the idiot bar as a trial balloon for abolishing physical keyboards altogether in favor of a touch interface (perhaps one with reconfigurable raised bumps for keys).
- EForEndeavour 7y ago
  I sincerely hope you're wrong.
duskwuff 7y ago
Getting away from Fn entirely is tough -- it's still useful as a way of simulating keys like PgUp/PgDn/Home/End (Fn+arrows) and forward delete (Fn+Backspace).
- apricot 7y ago
  Why laptop makers deleted those keys from the keyboard I'll never understand. With just an extra column of keys to the right of Enter, you get delete, page up, page down, home, and end. All very useful keys, right at your fingertips. Panasonic does it right on their rugged laptops, and some other manufacturers still have those keys on some business models, but most have done away with them. I mean, look at the Dell XPS 15 keyboard. All that space on both sides of the keyboard, and yet they make us chord to do something as simple as Page Down.
nordsieck 7y ago
> I never got why, if they really want the touch bar, they don't do both. F-keys and touch bar. That would consume room for the touchpad.

andyfleming 7y ago

I've been using MacBook Pro's with the touch bar for a while now, but I just picked up a MacBook Air (in addition to my MacBook Pro). It has a mechanical top row, with just the Touch ID button at the end and it's fantastic. It's so nice to have those keys back! I would pay $100 extra for a MacBook Pro without the touch bar. Here's the keyboard in all its glory (if you're curious): https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/MacBook-Air-Keyboard-10302018_inline.jpg.large.jpg https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/product/mac/standard/M...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TimTheTinker 7y ago
I actually really like the touch bar. I'd enjoy my 2016 MBP if it wasn't for the 2 keys that are now unreliable on the keyboard. That and the fact that it crashes every time the battery runs out.
- bdamm 7y ago
  I like the touch bar too. I just want the Esc key back (although they did add the option to remap CapsLock to Esc, so hurray for that, but honestly it was a delayed feature.)
  - pfranz 7y ago
    CapsLock to Esc is a new feature? I've had control mapped to CapsLock for years...which is one reason I'm actively avoiding the TouchBar.
    - torstenvl 7y ago
      I have the Caps Lock key mapped to Control (for Unixy things, especially Emacs), and the Control key mapped to Escape -- which, incidentally, improves locality of the Force Quit key combination. I never use Caps Lock anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

coldtea 7y ago

No touch bar + better keyboard.

whateveracct 7y ago

https://github.com/niw/HapticKey https://github.com/niw/HapticKey

lukifer 7y ago
Cool, thanks for sharing! (Seems like a missed opportunity that Apple didn't add their own built-in haptics to the TouchBar.)
- whateveracct 7y ago
  Yeah it would be great if the touchbar itself had haptic feedback. But the trackpad haptic feedback works surprisingly well.

legohead 7y ago

it's not responsive enough either. maybe I have a light touch, but I never had problems with the physical keyboard before. many times I go to pause my music or change volume and the buttons don't register for 2 or 3 presses. I thought the ESC key was going to be annoying, but it has ended up being everything else. also the huge trackpad is annoying. at home with the laptop on my lap I hit the edges all the time and send the mouse flying. had to turn off "hot corners" because I kept locking my laptop randomly.

rasfincher 7y ago

When I first got mine I found it fun to customize using BetterTouchTool, but I quickly realized it was no replacement for having hardware buttons. I miss them so much.

orcasauce 7y ago

I've refused my 3-year upgrade and fear the day I'll need a replacement for my late 2015 macbook. It's sad being stranded on hardware that is starting to show its age when the newer devices leave little to be desired from a usability standpoint. It also hurts that any replacement will be incompatible with my $150 dock.

protomyth 7y ago

Yeah, we are really down on the touch bar because one failed hard and another crashed so it showed nothing. It was quite the irritating thing. The keyboards are just a failure. I actually wish they had a touch id sensor on the back of the display like some Android phones so it is accessible when I have the machine plugged into a display. I really, really don't want thinner. I want the glued in battery banned, and a replaceable keyboard with ability to clean and replace the keys. I guess I just want a different definition of Pro.

dzhiurgis 7y ago

Also I'd love an option without external GPU. GPU switching is still slow and occasionally buggy, wastes power and has no benefit for me when writing any app.